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[G-Flex]

Casters get new and better toys to play with, while non-casters just get better at using th'same old ones Is annoying thing, all too often.

Thing is, even the more basic ones (levels 1-4 or so) are useful enough that if you're playing a physical attack sort of character, you're still going to wind up a hybrid anyway.

[Dakk]

Trolls are a challenge race if you're planning to do anything apart from clearing the lair. I don't know if its even possible for one to beat pandemonium or any hell level, much less zot. They need to eat alot, and often, have near zero spell capacity and cannot use most equipment. You might have a chance if you're a berserker, but otherwise you're got to get heavily outclassed by the first major caster you find. Enjoy being raped by mara.

Draconians are also a challenge race, given they can't use most equipment, have overall bad stats and their randomness means you have to wait till they change colour to effectively chose the best path or else you're going to end up with a half baked character. Demigods are a bit better then both since they get nice stat boosts and can take spellcasting with just a minor restriction to skill leveling, but lack anything that actualy makes up for their inability to pick a god.

[nenjin]

Without Pain, Slow and Confuse, I don't think I would have made it as far as I have on this game, and I'm cheating. The level of frustration you can have as a pure melee....compared to how much simpler the game becomes even with low levels spells, is huge.

[Dakk]

I have to cheat with saves everytime I play with melee characters or else I never get any farther then clearing the lair/orc mines. I have only done zot once and boy, if it wasn't for teleport, controlled teleport, haunt, mystical blast, orb of destruction and a few other spells I'd have zero chance.

I'm currently doing a demigod crusader, and I haven't had to cheat yet. But if I don't find a book to make use of his new magical skills I'll be doomed pretty soon.

[Leafsnail]

Trolls are a challenge race if you're planning to do anything apart from clearing the lair. I don't know if its even possible for one to beat pandemonium or any hell level, much less zot. They need to eat alot, and often, have near zero spell capacity and cannot use most equipment. You might have a chance if you're a berserker, but otherwise you're got to get heavily outclassed by the first major caster you find. Enjoy being raped by mara.

I dunno, I've heard that if you go Nemelex and Shuffle your strength to intelligence, it can work out well .

I have never seen a file of a character who's successfully done that, though.

[beorn080]

Linear warrior Quadratic casters.

I'm not gonna link it, but that's the phrase. There needs to be a secondary set of abilities based on combat skills. Limited choices, and can't take everything, but as warriors get better they need the ability to get more then just a +1 more damage.

The fact is that even if the only spell available is summon small mammals, if you compare a character at lvl 27 with no magic skills but massive physical skills, and a character at 20 with lesser physical skills but with spammals, the lvl 20 one stands a better chance, all things considered.

There is no real fix for it though. Examining the classes from the Tome of Battle from D&D would be a good start for melee characters. Not quite magic, but a great variety of abilities that somewhat level the playing field.

[Mr.Person]

There's plans for that, it's just the devs don't want to do (a)bilities, for some reason, and would rather they be passive always-on always-used stuff, which frankly I find boring.

[G-Flex]

That, and it's kind of hard for any sort of combat ability to make up for basic magic... unless you can pole-vault over water!

[Leafsnail]

Well, that'd be what Rings of Levitation are for .

Repel missiles could be a good one though.

[Robsoie]

An ability system would be the best solution over than overpowering pure fighting class to balance them with the more powerfull ones that are spell or hybrid spell/fight based.

I'm regularly playing ToME4 these days, and when i manage to be zen and see beyond those unexplainable (as it can occurs even on a completely cleared zone) and very annoying ToME4 engine heavy stutters and slowdowns in some place, i have tons of fun with fighters.

Because the whole ToME leveling system is based on abilities that depend on your class.

Some active, some passive and some sustained, making fighters a real joy to play, learning many new abilities, increasing the power of the ones you have, etc... and learning how to use them in battle to escape some certain death situations.

Those abilities really give fighters classes as much chances to survive as spellcastings/ranged ones, without removing the challenge as there are plenty of ways to die if not carefull enough or with hubris.

But Crawl is using a very different system and makes this solution not possible unless the devs would decide a big rework of the Stone Soup fundamentals as in the current Stone Soup rules, the devs made the choice to have the species being the important choice while the classes have much less influence (explaining why nearly everyone wanting to go far will end in using some magic or godbased spells).

And it would then change the gameplay, something that not every players and devs would appreciate, so it could be a risk for the future of Crawl.

I believe with a class based ability systems, it would have been then possible to make Thief and Death Knight truly unique, instead of just removing them like it has been done.

[G-Flex]

I don't think class-based abilities are a good idea, for the reasons you mentioned: It might work for some games, but it just isn't Crawl.


To be fair, in Crawl, you have options for spells aside from actual spellcasting, plus hybridization is usually possible. You have wands, rods, evocable armour/weapons, invocations, potions and scrolls, plus whatever racial abilities and mutations you might possess.

[beorn080]

I don't think class-based abilities are a good idea, for the reasons you mentioned: It might work for some games, but it just isn't Crawl.


To be fair, in Crawl, you have options for spells aside from actual spellcasting, plus hybridization is usually possible. You have wands, rods, evocable armour/weapons, invocations, potions and scrolls, plus whatever racial abilities and mutations you might possess.

Except all those options require hybridization. Thus, by the time you win, you're never a fighter. A wizard will probably get some sort of physical skills, but doesn't really need them. A fighter basically has to have invocation, evocation, or spellcasting to survive, unless your worshipping Trog, which severely limits any possible options you have.

I agree that CLASS based abilities are a bad idea, but I'd like to see skill based. Thus a wizard could get some with training if so inclined. I'd also think a way to victorydance as a melee person would be a good bonus, since its much easier for wizards to keep their spendable xp at a low level.

[G-Flex]

I'd also think a way to victorydance as a melee person would be a good bonus, since its much easier for wizards to keep their spendable xp at a low level.

I've never had a problem using up XP for direct combat skills, since you're constantly using them and they don't really cost anything, and they're what you make the killing blows with anyway. Especially at a low level, it's not as if you're ever filling up your XP pool.

[Mechanoid]

SO i decided to see what's changed after a long time away from Crawl.
Come back, see this:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The game is enjoyable when you're winning, right? The only way to win is with something viable... If there are non-viable choices, those choices won't win, and thus won't be fun to play... And so i didn't play. I deleted the folder in disgust that Linleys Dungeon Crawl has devolved to the point where the game has to actually tell you that "If you do or do not choose these things, you will lose and have no fun with this game" Too bad i only heard the last six words.

[forsaken1111]

Well that is a reasonable response to a requested feature.

Some race/class combos are more challenging than others, some of them so much so that using them is considered nonviable. Like using a low int race which gets spellcasting penalties with one of the spellcasting classes.