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Author Topic: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.  (Read 1681715 times)

FilthyMonkey

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4260 on: November 12, 2010, 12:28:40 am »

I still think you are in for a world of hurt with that plan, but if that is what you find enjoyable then go for it. 

As for your question, you'll keep most types of mutations while you are transformed.  If you naturally have claws and use statue form, your statue form will claw things instead of pummeling them.  In regards to the poison resistance thing, there is only one level of poison resistance.  Once you are resistant, you are resistant, so stacking wouldn't come into play there.  Resistances that have multiple levels can stack fine with a form though, so long as resistance doesn't come from a piece of equipment which gets melded away for that particular form.

Spider form still works fine with Chei.  The thing is, trolls of Chei will never get his full stat bonuses, so I'm not entirely sure they're compatible.

I actually prefer Sif Muna to Vehumet most of the time.  The spells granted are generally better after a short while, and the channeling is great (especially for kiting :P).
Yeah, Trolls wouldn't be a good Chei choice.  Something like a sludge elf or a merfolk transmuter would be fine with chei though. 

Sif used to be the better choice, but ever since the 0.6 Vehumet buffs I've always found Vehumet to be superior.  Cheaper conjurations, longer range conjurations, mana for kills, and god-supported conjurations all combine to make a package that really outshines Sif now.  These are bonuses which are always useful throughout the entirety of the game.  Sure, Sif may eventually gift you all spellbooks, but usually you will end up finding all of the important spells as it is.  Instead of random books, Vehumet gives you the books you need to kill stuff RIGHT NOW.  You'll usually be holding all of Vehumet's books by the time lair is done.  I am usually thrilled to get that book of power in my hands somewhere mid-lair so that I can burn mystic blast into my brain.

The only spells of consequence that tend to be hard to find are necromutation and controlled blink.  Neither one is necessary for a low rune (or even high rune) win though, and even then you'll usually end up finding both of them somewhere.

The main reason to take Sif now is the channeling, especially if you can do it hungerlessly.  Sif's channeling beats out the staff version pretty handily.  So you might want to go Sif if you are a mummy and don't have hunger to begin with, or you want to guarantee yourself a necronomicon and channel in lich form.  If you are playing a conjurer and aren't planning on abusing channeling somehow, I wouldn't suggest going with Sif. 
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Dr.Feelgood

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4261 on: November 12, 2010, 01:41:21 am »

I prefer Vehumet over Sif. Casting Fire Storm for free trumps free channeling.
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chaoticag

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4262 on: November 12, 2010, 04:16:56 am »

Okay, can I get some advice on this character? I want to go for a fighter caster hybrid:

I can get my AC up to 9 while keeping my EV15 with the armor spell.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Repulsion

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4263 on: November 12, 2010, 07:23:34 am »

  Well, if you wanna go with an Ice Elementalist, do so, but in my opinion I think MfCr is the best fighter/caster hybrid. You start with a book of War Chants and you have a +1 aptitude for enchantments, which isn't bad, and with the proper spell casting you can get pretty good enchant skill.

  Once you learn berserk rage from the book, you can use it to steamroll everything. If you find a book of Charms or a book of Changes, your in even better shape because the book of Charms gives you a much wider range of enchantments and the book of Changes gives you Tmut spells, in which Merfolk have a +3 aptitude in.

  You could worship Sif Muna at first to get a few assorted spell-books and then switch over to Okawaru to get armor and weapons. For the armor that a fighter/caster hybrid uses, I'd recommend a robe, preferably one with some kind of resistance, that is enchanted way high. With enchants you can get as much AC from a robe as a splint mail or something and when you were helmets/boots/gloves/whatever along with it the extra AC from that also helps. 

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FilthyMonkey

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4264 on: November 12, 2010, 11:25:05 am »

Yeah, MfCr is easy crawl.  Admittedly, it will be a little less good now that they've nerfed haste, but it will still be quite powerful.  I don't think I would suggest Sif though.  Outside of bosses like Cerebov, your mana isn't really going to be an issue, so channeling isn't so useful.  Personally, I like Oka for gifts and might.  4/5 of his gifts will be complete garbage, but you'll get the occasional gem.

The 15 rune I did during the tournament was actually a MfCr.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/FilthyApe/morgue-FilthyApe-20100826-200341.txt
I used Oka from the start until I got the swamp and shoals runes, and had explored down to D27.  I then did hall of blades, and used the experience there to burn all of my Oka piety spamming might.  I then switched to TSO, and did crypt.  I used the crypt piety to bless a demon trident.  I then whacked the royal jelly, the abyss, tomb, pan, and the hells.  I saved my potions of magic so that I could spam TSO summonables to kill Cerebov, and I just cheese kited Antaeus to death with haste and wands of fire.  In close combat, Antaeus tends to turn angels into angel pulp, so they don't work quite as well on him.

As for advice for your ice elementalist, the first thing I would suggest is turning ice magic off.  Your spellcasting is only 3, and you really need to build it up.  I would also suggest memorizing throw icicle for a solid level 4 damage conjuration.  Its damage is partially irresistible, which should help against some things. 

It would also be a good idea to try to get a better weapon, if one is available.  A -3/0 spear isn't exactly hot stuff.  Do a ctrl-f and see if you maybe missed a trident or a halberd.  Normally you'll have a gnoll or an orc drop something like that.  I would eventually suggest getting a shield, so I wouldn't use a halberd forever, but you don't have a shield at the moment and it would certainly outclass that spear.  If you get desperate for a buckler later you can make a quick journey into elf1, but there is a non-zero chance of being abyssed. 
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Dr.Feelgood

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4265 on: November 12, 2010, 12:56:01 pm »

Okay, can I get some advice on this character? I want to go for a fighter caster hybrid:

I can get my AC up to 9 while keeping my EV15 with the armor spell.

I recommend worshiping either Okawaru or Fedhas. Fedhas allows you to abuse weapons of reaching, and Okawaru is simple to use and you can switch to TSO later (this isn't necessary though). Turn off Stealth at 8, Stabbing, and Conjurations. Leave on Ice Magic if you want Ozocubu's Refrigeration (it's a great spell). Find a trident or halberd to use.

The 15 rune I did during the tournament was actually a MfCr.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/FilthyApe/morgue-FilthyApe-20100826-200341.txt
I used Oka from the start until I got the swamp and shoals runes, and had explored down to D27.  I then did hall of blades, and used the experience there to burn all of my Oka piety spamming might.  I then switched to TSO, and did crypt.  I used the crypt piety to bless a demon trident.  I then whacked the royal jelly, the abyss, tomb, pan, and the hells.  I saved my potions of magic so that I could spam TSO summonables to kill Cerebov, and I just cheese kited Antaeus to death with haste and wands of fire.  In close combat, Antaeus tends to turn angels into angel pulp, so they don't work quite as well on him.

As for advice for your ice elementalist, the first thing I would suggest is turning ice magic off.  Your spellcasting is only 3, and you really need to build it up.  I would also suggest memorizing throw icicle for a solid level 4 damage conjuration.  Its damage is partially irresistible, which should help against some things. 

It would also be a good idea to try to get a better weapon, if one is available.  A -3/0 spear isn't exactly hot stuff.  Do a ctrl-f and see if you maybe missed a trident or a halberd.  Normally you'll have a gnoll or an orc drop something like that.  I would eventually suggest getting a shield, so I wouldn't use a halberd forever, but you don't have a shield at the moment and it would certainly outclass that spear.  If you get desperate for a buckler later you can make a quick journey into elf1, but there is a non-zero chance of being abyssed.

You were in one of those SA clans, right? Yeah, merfolks were popular during the tourney. Anyway, a merfolk doesn't really need a shield. If he uses a demon trident/trishula without one he'll get a bonus 1d3 damage and glaives are pretty good. My MfCr won with a holy bardiche (this was before the EV buff in 0.6). In hindsight, I should have stuck with the glaive of speed Oka gave me.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 01:04:08 pm by Dr.Feelgood »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4266 on: November 12, 2010, 02:19:34 pm »

I've been playing around with MfCr's, but haven't really got the strategy sussed yet.  I'll probably improve with them later :P.
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cganya

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4267 on: November 12, 2010, 03:39:30 pm »

i heard that spriggan enchanters were easy mode but really, stone soup, really? I'm on floor 2, i found a +2 +3 dagger of speed within moments of starting the game. now this.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

tl;dr:

  1438 | D:2     | Noticed a giant spore
  1444 | D:2     | Defeated a giant spore
  1492 | D:2     | Reached XP level 4. HP: 9/19 MP: 4/12
  1492 | D:2     | Reached XP level 5. HP: 10/23 MP: 5/14
  1492 | D:2     | Reached XP level 6. HP: 11/27 MP: 6/17

yes, i killed a creature with 1 hit point and proceeded to go up three levels effortlessly.
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Repulsion

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4268 on: November 12, 2010, 07:01:09 pm »

  Nothing is easy mode in Crawl. There will most likely always be that one situation where your surrounded, or your starving, or you've run out of mana and that swarm of Yaks is just around the corner, but some race/class combos are easy compared to some other ones.
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Frumple

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4269 on: November 12, 2010, 07:36:20 pm »

No, no, SpEn's definitely Crawl's easy mode. To your scenarios, blink/invis, basically no hunger, you're faster than yaks and probably capable of meleeing them to death at that point due to sheer EV anyway, assuming they ever manage to wake up. Sprigs can occasionally be one-shotted by higher tier uniques, but since you're meleeing weaker things to death to train fighting, keeping an eye on resists, and probably have a plethora of escape options, it's not something that actually happens by the time you hit lair.

It might not be easy mode compared to, yanno', non-roguelikes, but it's definitely easy mode as those go. There's only one RL I've managed a win in that didn't involve massive imbalance compared to the majority of the other options in the game, and Crawl isn't it. I seriously doubt there's a combo in Crawl's current version that's easier to get a low-rune win with than a SpEn. There might be some that's as easy (Other spriggan combos ::)), but none that surpass it.

Sprigs are just bloody ridiculous, or at least stealth is mildly broken once it gets off the ground and naturally outrunning better than 3/4ths of the game is a silly, silly thing. 'bout the only downside sprigs have is their size, and possibly their low apts for the higher-damage weapons. When they stab for >400 damage anyway, it's not exactly an issue.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 07:41:30 pm by Frumple »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4270 on: November 12, 2010, 07:43:30 pm »

I don't think size is a disadvantage, since it buffs their Stealth and EV.  Their only serious weakpoint is HP, but plenty of other races are about the same.
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Frumple

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4271 on: November 12, 2010, 07:47:45 pm »

It's the weapon limitation and trample thing more than anything. Limits the possibility of going for tougher runes, due to lesser damage dealing capability, from what I understand. Not an issue if stab's possible, though, and sprigs do fine with conjuration even with their low apt for it. Most of spriggans' downsides only look troubling on paper :-\
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chaoticag

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4272 on: November 12, 2010, 08:04:34 pm »

After considering everyone's advice, Igot a glave of freezing and took okawaru as a god!
...
Then promptly died to a ghost of mine.

That made me decide to try out crusaders, and holy fuck are they sweet. Just waiting on a book with the ice armor in though...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Dr.Feelgood

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4273 on: November 12, 2010, 09:26:28 pm »

  Nothing is easy mode in Crawl. There will most likely always be that one situation where your surrounded, or your starving, or you've run out of mana and that swarm of Yaks is just around the corner, but some race/class combos are easy compared to some other ones.

Broken combos are as close to a guaranteed win as you're going to get in Crawl.

Broken combos:

v0.5: MDFi (cause of the AC nerf)

v0.6 and 0.7: SpEn (the recent tournament was proof)
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Leafsnail

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #4274 on: November 12, 2010, 09:52:23 pm »

Troll Warper is the 15 fastest!?
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