Topic: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND. (Read 1681911 times)

Soadreqm · « **Reply #4230 on:** November 04, 2010, 11:33:57 pm »

Quote from: chaoticag on November 04, 2010, 10:03:50 pm

I just remembered something here, daggers are better than sabers in every way if you specialize in backstabbing. At 27 skill, you cause 11 times the damage of a normal hit, compared to the 3 times of any other short blade.

What? You sure? I though it was 3 times for weapons that weren't short blades. Stabbing with a hammer gives a slight damage increase, stabbing with a saber splatters everything all over the place, and stabbing with a dagger gives you some bonuses at lower skill levels, with no difference at higher skill. Or did they change it recently?

cganya · « **Reply #4231 on:** November 05, 2010, 01:55:07 am »

Quote from: Soadreqm on November 04, 2010, 11:33:57 pm

Quote from: chaoticag on November 04, 2010, 10:03:50 pm
I just remembered something here, daggers are better than sabers in every way if you specialize in backstabbing. At 27 skill, you cause 11 times the damage of a normal hit, compared to the 3 times of any other short blade.

What? You sure? I though it was 3 times for weapons that weren't short blades. Stabbing with a hammer gives a slight damage increase, stabbing with a saber splatters everything all over the place, and stabbing with a dagger gives you some bonuses at lower skill levels, with no difference at higher skill. Or did they change it recently?

i recently looked at this myself. from the wiki:

Stabbing damage

The Stabbing skill increases your stabbing damage, but not all stabbings are equal. Your stabbing bonus is determined by your Stabbing skill, the stabbing "tier" (the target's state), and your choice of weapon.

Tiers:

* Stabbing attacks against creatures that are sleeping, paralyzed, petrified, or held in a net are tier 1 stabbings, the most effective kind.
* Creatures that are confused, fleeing, or being invisistabbed fall under tier 2 stabbings.
* Creatures that are simply distracted (or haven't noticed you yet) fall under tier 3 stabbings, and are the least effective.

Weapons:

* Short blades provide a bonus to damage before the stabbing multiplier is applied.This extra damage is significantly increased if you are wielding a dagger, but is capped at 30. With sufficiently high Stabbing skill and Dexterity, other short blades can also hit the cap. Even without this bonus, short blades are still the best for stabbing.
* Long blades provide the second-largest bonus after short blades.
* All other weapon types get the smallest bonus for stabbing.

Also I'm rocking the socks off things as a deep dwarf necromancer despite still only having the starter book of necromancy spells. having an eight headed hydra zombie is awesome. I have more identified wands than i can shake a stick at (or a wand) and because of a killer bee hive i was able to trash with a wand of fire (bottle necks for the win) i have all the food i could ever want for now. my only problem now is encumbrance

also, killing a fire drake with nothing but dozens of killer bee zombies is fun and relatively safe if you yourself stay behind cover.

now if i could just find a book shop or something and get some more necromancy spells...

Frumple · « **Reply #4232 on:** November 05, 2010, 10:47:56 am »

Quick hard an'fast rule for the short blade stabbing bonus, from the generally more reliable knowledge bot:

Quote

To get the maximum bonus you need to have dex*(1 + stabbing skill) >= 300 (with a dagger) or 600 (any other short blade).

So at 27 stab, you need 21 dex to get +30 on a non-dagger shortblade. A dagger would only require 10 dex.

There isn't a special dagger category for the damage multiplier, just the short blade bonus damage. All short blades would manage a 1100% increase for a 27 stab tier 1 stab. A sabre is going to do nearly double what a non-enchanted dagger would do at that point and a solid 30 points more when fully enchanted.

So daggers are actually better for stabbing when you don't specialize in stabbing, not when you do.

Dr.Feelgood · « **Reply #4233 on:** November 05, 2010, 01:08:27 pm »

Quote from: Frumple on November 05, 2010, 10:47:56 am

Quick hard an'fast rule for the short blade stabbing bonus, from the generally more reliable knowledge bot

Knowledge Bot gets its monster info from the source and the rest comes from Learndb. If you're looking up a monster, then the Knowledge Bot is superior to the wiki. Otherwise, both are filled with unreliable info. The majority of Learndb entries are either pointless, jokes, or too vague to be outright wrong.

Soadreqm · « **Reply #4234 on:** November 05, 2010, 08:17:50 pm »

The most reliable way to get accurate information, I have found, is to ask in the IRC channel. There's usually SOMEONE around who knows his stuff.

Mr.Person · « **Reply #4235 on:** November 05, 2010, 09:24:03 pm »

I think you're all forgetting that at some point, you don't need anymore damage from a stab. I mean, when you do over 400 damage in a single stab, what's the point of doing more?

cganya · « **Reply #4236 on:** November 05, 2010, 11:11:52 pm »

DAMN YOU ANGES! DAMN YOU!!!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That lajatang of vamparism i could deal with, her armor of +9 magic resistance or whatever i could not. for a unique that usually has a negative magic resistance, i couldn't hit her with anything, not my wand of disintegration, my spells, my other wands, not my evaporated potions of anything. only thing that affected her was a good old smack with my awesome battle axe i just found off another unique. she had a sliver of health left when she killed me too, damn her! This character was only 3400 points short of my best.

Taxus · « **Reply #4237 on:** November 06, 2010, 02:09:46 am »

I just became the first person to win with a Minotaur Conjurer. (for versions 0.4 and greater, of course)

woot!

Minotaurs are death machines, of course. I've always played them as monks or heavy armoured fighters. This was like playing a monk with a giant sword and casting spells.

I had a very treasure-poor dungeon up until the late mid-game. I didn't have a lot of the basic rings and resistances until I cleared Elf:7 and got their loot. And of course I was gimped from the start by being a MiCj. Not a recommended combo unless you like dying.

Repulsion · « **Reply #4238 on:** November 06, 2010, 10:32:05 pm »

I DON'T GET IT. Two times this has happened. Two times, I've played a Deep Dwarf Necromancer and gotten the spells Vampiric Draining along with Pain. And two times have the success rates of those spells have gone down. The excellent success rate of Pain went to fair, and the great success rate of Vampiric Draining went to bad.

Can anyone please enlighten me as to what is happening?

KaminaSquirtle · « **Reply #4239 on:** November 06, 2010, 11:35:27 pm »

Quote from: Repulsion on November 06, 2010, 10:32:05 pm

I DON'T GET IT. Two times this has happened. Two times, I've played a Deep Dwarf Necromancer and gotten the spells Vampiric Draining along with Pain. And two times have the success rates of those spells have gone down. The excellent success rate of Pain went to fair, and the great success rate of Vampiric Draining went to bad.

Can anyone please enlighten me as to what is happening?

Are you putting on armor, by any chance? Armor lowers the success rate of spells relative to it's evasion penalty, and since you're a DDNe I figured that's what you could be doing.

cganya · « **Reply #4240 on:** November 07, 2010, 02:33:26 am »

Quote from: KaminaSquirtle on November 06, 2010, 11:35:27 pm

Quote from: Repulsion on November 06, 2010, 10:32:05 pm
I DON'T GET IT. Two times this has happened. Two times, I've played a Deep Dwarf Necromancer and gotten the spells Vampiric Draining along with Pain. And two times have the success rates of those spells have gone down. The excellent success rate of Pain went to fair, and the great success rate of Vampiric Draining went to bad.

Can anyone please enlighten me as to what is happening?
Are you putting on armor, by any chance? Armor lowers the success rate of spells relative to it's evasion penalty, and since you're a DDNe I figured that's what you could be doing.

especially dwarven armor, any dwarven armor greatly reduces spell success. also if you are for some reason losing intelligence you might see a hit to your spell success.

Frumple · « **Reply #4241 on:** November 07, 2010, 11:54:07 am »

Um, he's a DDNe, though, so the dwarven armor wouldn't reduce spellcasting success any more than non-dwarven armor. The dwarf bonus for wearing racial armor cancels out the dwarven armor penalty to casting.

But yeah, heavier armor than normal or int drain are the two primary reasons for success going down. Iirc, some status effects can cause spell failure to increase, but I couldn't say off the top of my head what they are.

Remember that both shields and body armor increase spell failure. Helmets, etc, don't. Any armor with -0 to EV won't effect your casting chances, same for shields. Bucklers are your friend, heh.

Repulsion · « **Reply #4242 on:** November 07, 2010, 03:15:40 pm »

Well thanks for the advice. I've found that -1 leather armor doesn't really affect your casting abilities.

cganya · « **Reply #4243 on:** November 08, 2010, 11:08:25 am »

Quote from: Repulsion on November 07, 2010, 03:15:40 pm

Well thanks for the advice. I've found that -1 leather armor doesn't really affect your casting abilities.

elven leather armor affects your spell casting even less, in fact all elven armors affect your spell casting very little compared to their normal counterparts.

DDNE's, despite getting necromancy up high quickly, build their spellcasting and other schools slowly this makes it hard for them to cast multi school necromancy spells.

spell faliur is calculated like this:

spellFailure = 60
- 6 * spell skills
- 2 * Intelligence
+ Spell difficulty
+ Armour/shield penalty
+ Weapon penalty

spell skills are calculated like this:

spellSkills = Spellcasting / 2
+ Mean(SpellSkills) * 2

this is why on pure necromancy spells your chance to cast should be high, my DDNE's tend to have 5 or 6 spellcasting by the time they have 17 necromancy. spell casting would contribute 3% failure reduction while necromancy would add 24%. when you cast a spell like regeneration when you dont have any skill in enchantment, that 24% is cut in half. when you cast a spell that has three schols while only being proficent in one the bonus is cut down to one third. so if you had 10 in spell casting and 10 in a school of magic then the spell casting would be more effective on your success chance when you cast a spell of three schools in which you only have one trained and at level 10.

tl;dr DDNE's are great at casting any necromancy spell that is purely necromatic, for the others, reducing spellcasting penalties is probably more viable.

spellDifficulty = 3 (level 1)
15 (level 2)
35 (level 3)
70 (level 4)
100 (level 5)
150 (level 6)
200 (level 7)
260 (level

330 (level 9)

Armour and shield penalties

The spellcasting penalties from armour and shields are linked together. The gist of it, for body armour, is as follows:

* The more a piece of body armour impedes Evasion, the more it will impede spellcasting.
* If your character's Strength is not at least three times your body armour's EV penalty, you receive an additional penalty to spellcasting.
* The Armour skill reduces your body armour's penalty, but never to less than 40% of its base value (assuming no additional penalty from lack of Strength).

And for shields:

* The larger the shield, the larger the penalty. Bucklers are your friends.
* The Shields skill offsets the spellcasting penalty.

Racial armour also has an effect. Elven armour impedes spellcasting less than normal armour, while dwarven armour impedes it more. Wearing racial armour that matches the character's species reduces the penalty - which, for dwarves in dwarven armour, actually cancels out the racial penalty. Note that only body armour and shields affect spellcasting; bardings inflict no spellcasting penalty.

basically this means that even though your a dwarf, you probably want to get into elven armor when you can. just nullifying the dwarven racial penalty on armor isnt enough.

Weapon penalty is based solely on the speed of the weapon. Weapons with a speed of 120% or faster have no penalty. There is no way to mitigate this penalty.

weaponPenalty = 3 * (weaponSpeed - 120) / 20

say you were to use an executioner's axe as your weapon. it has a speed of 200%. this would add a 8% spell faliure. so this penalty, while existing, is not that huge.

tl;dr anything. wear elven stuff rather than anything else, racial bonus be damned. spells with more than necromancy as are much harder to cast and try to use faster weapons than slower ones, as long as your 120% or lower you wont incur a penalty.

Mr.Person · « **Reply #4244 on:** November 08, 2010, 05:19:01 pm »

When he's not off inventing new pure conjuration energy blasts and scoring with Roxanne, Iskenderun likes to relax by peddling used armor over in the Mazes of Menace.

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Author Topic: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND. (Read 1681911 times)

Soadreqm

Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.

cganya

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Frumple

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Dr.Feelgood

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Soadreqm

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Mr.Person

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cganya

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Taxus

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Repulsion

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KaminaSquirtle

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cganya

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Frumple

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Repulsion

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cganya

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Mr.Person

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