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[Ozarck]

well, maybe. We'll never know though. I died.

Edit:
I just realized something. Gargoyles eat flesh and fruits and jelly. Why? THey are statues, why do they eat organic person food? Shouldn't they consume rocks or something?

[Sarrak]

I just realized something. Gargoyles eat flesh and fruits and jelly. Why? THey are statues, why do they eat organic person food? Shouldn't they consume rocks or something?

Because player gargoyles are "A cross between ordinary stone gargoyles and living beings"

[Ozarck]

Fair enough

[beorn080]

I just realized something. Gargoyles eat flesh and fruits and jelly. Why? THey are statues, why do they eat organic person food? Shouldn't they consume rocks or something?

Because player gargoyles are "A cross between ordinary stone gargoyles and living beings"

That would be a nice minor flavor thing, letting them eat stones as well as flesh. I can't imagine it would actually change much.

[Ozarck]

gotta say, I am not loving 0.20. every version since 0.17 seems to have focused on shortening the branches, filling them with more dangerous monsters, and bringing monsters earlier in the game.

but ... but scarves. Oh fucking yay. and kung fu. yippie.

[Ozarck]

Hmm.
So, here's what I have been doing lately:
I play v 0.20 now, and have been playing each of the "simple" races, in turn, cycling through them. I feel it isn't the best strategy, but I am sticking with it, for now.

Currently I am playing a Gargoyle Earth elementalist. as I have not yet had a win with anything but a fighter, I am following a player guide/walkthrough, specifically
Majang's GrEE Walkthrough
understand that his advice on skill leveling is unpopular, since he advocates leveling something like eight skills at once. This is why I am doing it that way, but am open to be persuaded to modify my approach.

I have cleared lair, and am on my way to Orc, which I just located on Dungeon 12.

So, I have a question: I have just been offered the knowledge of Spellforged Servitor. Should I take it? It means adding summoning to my list of skills, but Spellforged servitors seem pretty powerful and useful. Are they worth the added cost?

Code: [Select]

052 the Geomancer (Gargoyle Earth Elementalist)    Turns: 27551, Time: 02:39:18

Health: 87/87      AC: 18    Str: 17    XL:     14   Next: 94%
Magic:  14/27      EV: 15    Int: 32    God:    Vehumet [*****.]
Gold:   998        SH:  0    Dex: 10    Spells: 12/32 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis .   E - +2 dire flail (holy)
rCold    . . .     Gourm    +   (shield currently unavailable)
rNeg     + . .     Faith    .   S - +1 leather armour of the Journeyman {Str+5}
rPois    8         Spirit   .   o - +2 hat
rElec    +         Reflect  .   W - scarf {repulsion}
rCorr    .         Harm     .   (no gloves)
MR       +....                  N - +1 pair of boots
Stlth    ++........             B - amulet of the gourmand
Regen    0.3/turn               G - +6 ring of intelligence
MPRegen  0.2/turn               z - +5 ring of intelligence

@: flying, repel missiles
A: big wings, negative energy resistance 1, electricity resistance, unbreathing,
petrification resistance, rot immunity, AC +9
a: Stop Flying, Renounce Religion


You are on level 12 of the Dungeon.
You worship Vehumet.
Vehumet is extremely pleased with you.
You are very full.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 19 of its levels.
You have also visited: Labyrinth and Ossuary.

You have collected 998 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 E - a +2 dire flail of holy wrath (weapon)
Missiles
 b - 302 stones (quivered)
 n - 2 throwing nets
Armour
 o - a +2 hat (worn)
 M - a buckler
 N - a +1 pair of boots (worn)
 S - the +1 leather armour of the Journeyman (worn) {Str+5}
   (You found it on level 9 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your strength (+5).
 W - a scarf of repulsion (worn)
Jewellery
 i - a ring of protection from cold
 r - an uncursed ring of see invisible
 z - a +5 ring of intelligence (right hand)
 B - an amulet of the gourmand (around neck)
 G - a +6 ring of intelligence (left hand)
 Q - the ring "Zaferoes" {rF+ Dex+3}
   (You acquired it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   [ring of protection from fire]
   
   It affects your dexterity (+3).
   It protects you from fire.
 U - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
Wands
 e - a wand of scattershot (?/9)
 A - a wand of disintegration (?/24)
Scrolls
 c - a scroll of identify
 j - a scroll of magic mapping
 m - 8 scrolls of remove curse
 t - 11 scrolls of teleportation
 u - 4 scrolls of fog
 y - 3 scrolls of fear
 C - 5 scrolls of recharging
Potions
 g - 7 potions of resistance
 k - 14 potions of curing
 p - 4 potions of lignification
 q - 4 potions of agility
 s - 4 potions of haste
 R - a potion of heal wounds
Miscellaneous
 f - a lamp of fire
 F - a fan of gales
 K - a lightning rod (4/4)
Comestibles
 a - a royal jelly
 d - 19 bread rations
 J - 9 fruits


   Skills:
 + Level 9.8 Fighting
 + Level 8.7 Maces & Flails
 - Level 5.0 Armour
 + Level 7.7 Dodging
 - Level 2.1 Stealth
 + Level 9.9 Spellcasting
 + Level 11.0 Conjurations
   Level 0.7 Transmutations
 + Level 7.6 Fire Magic
 + Level 12.5 Earth Magic
 + Level 6.7 Evocations


You have 12 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Sandblast             Erth           ######       0%          1    None
b - Stone Arrow           Conj/Erth      ######       1%          3    None
c - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           #######...   1%          5    ###....
d - Flame Tongue          Conj/Fire      #####        1%          1    None
e - Bolt of Magma         Conj/Fire/Erth ######....   1%          5    ###....
f - Fireball              Conj/Fire      ######....   1%          5    ###....

I'm probably going to forget flame tongue soon: I only got that one to jump start my fire skill.

[TheDarkStar]

How many of Vehumet's spells have you seen so far? I've heard that Spellforged Servitor is good, but you also want to have some spell levels for things like Iron Shot or LCS. And yeah, forgot flame tongue now that you have actually useful fire spells.

As for skill leveling, try training the skills you need for a lot of stuff (like Conjurations, although not spellcasting) more than the other skills. Aside from Earth Magic, turn off spell skills if all relevant spells are at 1% failure. If I was playing, I'd leave off evocations entirely,  but that's because I basically never use wands.

[Arcvasti]

First advice: Don't train Fire Magic high enough to get Fire Storm unless you're planning on Extended. Shatter is quite helpful and simple to get operational for Gargoyles, but Fire Storm is much much harder and should only be considered unless you're intent on beating up Pan/Hells/Zigs.

Training eight skills at once is a terrible idea for mages. Meleers can get away with it once they have their weapon at min-delay because at that point, they don't need any more skills soley for killing things and instead need more HP/AC/EV. Mages need more skills for killing things and can't afford their magic skills taking longer to advance.

Second advice: Turn off Maces and Flails, probably for the whole game. Its high enough that bashing won't take longer then a turn, which is as high as it needs to be for mages. Turn off Evocations, until such time as you 1. find a staff of energy and 2. decide to go do Pan/Hells/Zigs. Evokables are great, but most of them are just as great at skill level 7 as at skill level 10, with a few notable exceptions. Still not a bad place to dump excess exp, in the window between getting Iron Shot and getting Shatter. Turn off Fire Magic, until you actually have Bolt of Fire, which is the sole remaining reason to train it for the foreseeable future. You might also want to memorize Sticky Flame, since that's quite useful for revealing invisible enemies and for doing respectable damage. If you're going for Spellforged Servitor[I've never used it, but I've heard good things about them], I'd make Summoning the ONLY skill you train until you can either cast Spellforged Servitor or your Summoning skill is equal to your Conjurations skill.

Unrelated: Wow, you have a total of +11 Int from rings.

FAKEEDIT:

Don't bother reserving spell slots for Vehumet's gifts. If you forget Stoneblast and Flame Tongue, you should have enough slots on the off chance Vehumet gifts you with Orb of Destruction. The final array of level 8/9 spells Vehumet gives are permanent as long as you worship them, so don't worry about missing LCS/Shatter. LCS is also not terrifically useful because of its tiny range, but its very nice against dangerous foes like Orbs of Fire/Curse Toes.

REALEDIT:

Maybe don't actually memorize Sticky Flame, since its probably not THAT good at your level and Vehumet might decide to gift Orb of Destruction.

[Ozarck]

Thank you guys for the helpful and detailed responses!

I've seen seven of Vehemut's spells (bolded and underlined the ones I took.):
sting, Flame tongue, Searing Ray, Olgreb's Toxic Radiance, Bolt of Magma, Fireball, and Spellforged Servitor.

The guide suggests evocations in part for wands, but more so for the possibility of staff of earth. I favor the elemental evocables though.
I do tend to use wands rather little. I've started using status wands more than attack ones mostly. They all seem only decent around mid dungeon and lair, but having a paralysis for someone like Sonja is super helpful.

I'll turn Evocations off.
I'll turn Maces and Flails off too. I was going for 12 points, but, eh.

Unrelated: I once had +11 Strength from rings, too. I forget what race though.

I have a ring of see invisible, so I don't really need sticky flame for that, though I could see it helping. Usually, I don't have too much trouble with invisible enemies, especially if I can get them in a hallway.

[Ozarck]

well, I just discovered that they significantly nerfed the elemental evocables in v 0.19

all the changes I've seen so far since 0.17 seem to be aimed at stripping the player of possible advantages.
And punishing the player for previously smart strategies.
except scarves and gods, but they seem to be a lateral move, at best.

Am I wrong? is there a silver lining here I am missing?

[TheDarkStar]

There's been a heavy trend of nerfing things, yeah. Most of the justification has been that there are certain things (e.g. wands of healing) where if you found one you it was always better to use it no matter what kind of character you played that rendered other parts of the game (limited amounts of healing/curing potions) less important.

I still have no idea why they weakened evocations in general or why they shorted some branches.

[Not good with names]

Well, I dunno, I'll go to bat for reducing floor bloat.  Besides the extra XP, I don't really miss the extra floors of orc/lair.  I think getting rid of o-mash tab in favor of more battles where you have to think a second is good if you want replayability.  That and they were probably sick of the people who kept saying that D:1-lair was more difficult than the rest of the game.

[Ozarck]

Well, I dunno, I'll go to bat for reducing floor bloat.  Besides the extra XP, I don't really miss the extra floors of orc/lair.  I think getting rid of o-mash tab in favor of more battles where you have to think a second is good if you want replayability.  That and they were probably sick of the people who kept saying that D:1-lair was more difficult than the rest of the game.

XP is important for getting ahead of the difficulty curve. Replayability is a null issue. Many of the nerfs and added challenges occur before lair.

Edit: I will say that reducing the floor count in orc hasn't really affected me much, except that you often have to travel through the bottom floor to get back to the first floor. That seems like bad design, since the bottom floor is typically the higher challenge. Lair feels a little more affected. But, while i mentioned shorter branches in one of the posts above, it really isn't at the core of the issue.

[Not good with names]

I'm curious about what you mean by the new challenges before lair.  Maybe I'm just drawing a blank, but it feels like the enemies they've thrown in the past few versions, at least the ones that intimidate me, are more like the Entropy Weavers, quicksilver dragons, spark wasps and Melias (bee smiters), which are definitely in the kill/teleport away immediately category, though they rarely show up too early (though definitely they can show up before your first rune).

But yeah, I can see the nerfs to Evoc being big, at least until you get used to them.  Removal of haste/heal wounds makes all the consumables a bit more important, and I've definitely had a few games where upon reaching depths I'm out of teleport scrolls and that's a bummer.  I suppose since they were gunning to remove regular buffing outside of skald types, and the only other solution was more enemies that debuff/destatus like quicksilver dragons, I'll take this solution though.

[Ozarck]

Melias show up in lair, but I haven't noticed them as a big challenge, myself. Prince Ribbit has been moved to Early dungeon, Fanner or whatever that ice wizard's name is, has been bumped forward, seems like two headed ogres are making earlier appearances. There was at least one more unique that showed up surprisingly early for me but i am drawing a blank on who it was.

Maybe it's bad luck, but I've noticed a lot more open dungeon floor plans, more squads of creatures - even groups of squads, more enemies showing up right at the stairwells, and stairwells tending to cluster together when that happens.

The new optional teleport vaults took a minute to learn to handle appropriately (by ignoring them), but larger, more frequent minivaults like larger beehives filled with a variety of opponents are showing up.

It sounds like the changes favor your playstyle. I hate having to kite monsters, stairdance, column dance, and teleport before my health drops below 75%. But even those strategies are weakened by what appears to be a more aggressive respawn rate - and I've always hated having to fight some random monster on a cleared floor while resting. Especially if the monster was a) high level when my health was low, or b) low level when my health wasn't critical. the former is just stressful, the latter is tedious, and IMO, bad design.

I know I am wandering a bit afield of my previous comments, but tedium is a bigger killer of replayability than "lack of challenge" in a game with a 1.5% winrate. Though, of course, tab-smashing can be tedious if you are fortunate enough to have built your character to withstand it and wise enough to cancel when the game throws a genuine challenge into the pile of mooks. I've died many times to a sudden change in difficulty that i didn't notice soon enough.
Finally, I feel I had just gotten decent enough with 0.17 to branch out a bit from Hill Orc Fighters of Okawaru and Deep Dwarves of Mahkleb, or to take either of those into extended. So, the changes are a setback for me, personally, as someone with a grand total of four wins under their belt. After seven hundred games or so. (Hence the "replayability is a null issue" argument I made before. If you are experienced enough to find winning boring, you have either played this game into the ground, played so many roguelikes that it makes no difference, or are some kind of savant. )

Completely unrelated:

Holy Crap! Dungeon level 7. XL 9 MiBe. I have like, 12 unidentified potions and 12 unidentified scrolls. Click the biggest scroll stack (7 scrolls) and yes, lucky me, they are identifies and not teleports. I have a stack of 14 potions - that must be curing. i hope that stack of 6 is heal wounds. Stack of six is curing. What? what the heck? What could that stack of 14 be? Heal wounds?! What the Heck! I've gone entire games with half that many heal wounds (maybe a bit of an exaggeration).