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[Aoi]

Oh, don't get me wrong-- I'd use Maxwell's in a heartbeat for most of the game on a fighter. But Vaults:5 is just far too unpredictable (or rather, predictable in the sense you're sure to get surrounded...) to not have a Get Out of Jail card to play at a moment's notice.

Admittedly, I didn't notice the god though; I don't even know how to use decks properly at all.

How about the entrance to hell or the Abyssal rune first? With any luck, you can also grab a solid Demon/Eudemon Blade too. I wouldn't do Tombs unless I had rN+++ or was worshipping Kiku/TSO since that place can go wrong in a hurry with a few bad rolls.

Edit: I'd prefer a solid Gold Dragon Armor instead, or, better yet, an artifact Crystal Plate, but good luck ever finding one of those with a good set of enchantments... I think I found one with like +19 or something equally ridiculous once..

[Ozarck]

The Maxwell's is the only solid armor I have found. Next best has been a +2plate of fire resistance. I sure am looking though. I have a gold dragon hide, but no enchant armor scrolls, so that route is still out.

Can Demonspawn use Eudemon blades? seems unlikely.

I do have rNeg+++, so I at least have a fighting chance in tombs. I'd have to take it pretty slow though - not bulletproof by any means.

As for the abyssal rune: I have only visited Abyss by accident so far, and it hasn't been a good experience, lol. I have survived a few times, even getting down to floor three once before finding an exit, but I don't know. maybe. As for entrance to hell, I will give it serious consideration, but I worry that it would be a needless risk. At least I am semi familiar with v:5. On the other hand, maybe I am better suited to the vestibule than v:5 at the moment. I'll look it up and see.

I have only recently started using Nemelex. I found that I tended to raise evocations anyway for wands, so I figured I'd go for it. Decks do take some getting used to. Here are the poiints I've learned so far:
1) Nemelex gives you more decks than you are probably going to use. Don't be stingy with stack five and deal four.
2) each god ability works best for certain circumstances.
2a) deal three works if you need a particular card. Like, say you are facing soemthing immune to poison. Well, venom and vitriol are useless, so deal three on destruction to find something else
2b) stack five is about the only way to make escape decks useful.
2c) don't deal four destruction on large groups of high powered monsters. You'll get a degeneration card, and suddenly you have a broad spectrum of threats rather than one type. This is how I died last time in V:5
3) get to know the decks of destruction, war, and escape - these are nemelex's gift decks. other decks are side issues at best.
4) I really like having the four elemental atrifacts and the disc of storms. I find that i use those, decks, and the rods more than wands, box of beasts and sack of spiders, and other items. Having the rods of innacuracy, destruction, and ignition is a blast.
5) it takes up sooooooo much inventory space. I hang onto about four types of potion, four types of scrolls, five types of wands one type of food, whatever I am wearing and weilding, and two of each of nemelex's decks (usually ornate) at a time. that leaves me about ten spaces to collect other stuff as I go, and those fill up fast.


Thanks for your replies Aoi! It's nice being able to bounce things off of someone occasionally.

[Not good with names]

Well, if you have wand of teleport and apportation spell, then Abyss is pretty much the easiest rune outside of the lair branches.  With heavy armor you basically wander around and tab everything until you get swamped by stars and those screaming bubbles, then you teleport and start wandering again.    The rune chambers are usually not too difficult, and if they are then just tele and look for a different one.  Mutations blow, but as long as you know how to deal with the stars (run away or kill immediately), it's pretty much a slam dunk that takes a couple thousand turns.

[Ozarck]

I'm wearing an armor that is -tele, am melee and card oriented (no spells). I do have an amulet of rMut, so that might help with that part of it.

I've hopped into Tomb 1. It's okay if I take things one or two at a time, but between guardian mummies and greater mummies, there is a real risk there. I lost a lot of hp running away. at least I have that hasting wand. still thinking I might drop into hell maybe. I am now level 25 and the only mutation left in my demonspawn levelups is hurl hellfire, so I got that to look forward to.

I still might drop into V:5, light off that rod of ignition, and cut loose with summons and destruction. i could probably carve a decent path through the enemy and possibly unlock the door out before the vault sentinels know what hit them. Not quite ready to risk it though. Kicking that particular beehive is gonna be intense, lol.

[Aoi]

Thanks for your replies Aoi! It's nice being able to bounce things off of someone occasionally.

Oh, no problem. Though, I'm sure as you've noticed-- some of my thoughts may be off the mark. Like I entirely discounted the bit about being a demonspawn or that you're on .17. (I typically play trunk or experimental when not tournament season.)

Yeah; eudemon blades come default with holy wrath brands and I'm not even sure if it's possible to rebrand them.

Your current situation seems to kind of really suck. Offense is sort of questionable (Weapon seems pretty weak, for this point) and you're either facing Tombs with limited escape options and a god without any specific advantages there, V:5 without any of the easy ways to deal with it (Side thought: Got enough swappables/potions of resistance for rF+++ so you can just clear the entrance with a scroll of immolation?), Abyss is bad by experience, and yay for daevas as a demonspawn... though, unless you get really bad luck, you can probably clear out like 3/4ths of the Zig and get some nice loot in the process. (...Assuming it's anything like Ziggurat Sprint; I've never entered a Zig in a real game since I always forget before I do the orb run.)

[Ozarck]

Highest I got in zig before was level nine I think, with an orc fighter of ... hmm Oka, probably. I hope to try it, but I have to be careful to take out thedeavas ... maybe I can degenerate them. that'd make them less specifically dangerous to my character.

I think I have enough swappables to get rF+++, and I have some scrolls of immolation around here somewhere. I'll check and see.

I'd stay with trunk myself if I felt strong enough as a player, but I have won once, nad I think the changes would throw me enough to set me back a ways. I am just sticking with a version until I am competent enough to play the game. Bythen we'll probably be on v 0.25 or more, lol. It'll be like a sequel!

Update on the game: I switched to a +2 large shield of fire resistance, grabbed a couple scrolls of immolation, and headed into V:5. I immolated the vault guards, then fired a couple shots of a rod of destruction. It didn't quite have the desired effect, so I switched to the rod of ignition, and boy, that was some fun reading!

Of course this draws out the titans, ettins, tengu reavers, iron giants and a few sundries, so I still have a fight on my hands. A few summons and the use of al four elemental artifacts, plus a little cardmancy, and i am hurting, but on top of it. And then an ancient lich shows up, blocking my escape to the corner. Oh god. But my lamp of fire had recharged, and that slowed him down enough to kill. Unfortunately, on the way up thestairs to recharge, another anchient lich shows up. sheesh guys. Leave me alone!

that one was easier though, even though I was seriously down on hp (like, actual good players would have rolled their eyes and shook their heads at me for letting it get that way).

After that, it was all over  but the mopping up. I got the rune, the +4 arc sword, and a +1 crystal plate armor. It gives me 7 less AC, but the damage shaving is 9% better I think? It loses me the intrinsics of rCorr and rMagic though. (I think I have rElec from somewhere else.) So, overall, besides the rune, which is my fourth, I don't feel I gained much of real use. couple of wands and scrolls really. But if I find some enchant armors, the crystal might be worth swapping to.

Anyway, I'm relatively happy with the outcome. I might still go on into the tombs a bit further, but I think I might check out the Vestibule of Hell instead. I'll think on it some more. Thanks again for all the suggestions, and for listening to my little story!

final update: Died on Tomb 2
thre was one available stairway down, and it led to a wide open area. I made hte mistake of stairdancing a swarm of enemies, some of whom had torment. I compounded that mistake by not seeing that I had been hit until a round or two later, and not being able to get upstairs before a third hit. ugh, it's so easy to make that mistake. Fuck.

[Aoi]

I don't step away from the stairs in that openish room until I know like 90% of the area is clear. Even pop a scroll of noise or walk around a few steps and about to lure stuff in. I've managed to lose way OP characters in there before due to carelessness. (Mostly backups of endgame characters taken before the orb run.)

[Ozarck]

Yeah. I stayed right on the stairs. never moved. I just needed to go up them after the first round. hell, I needed to recognize that I was out of my depth at that point and abandon that branch. I got excited about winning Vaults and wanted a five rune run. got greedy.

I didn't switch to the crystal. I hadn't decided to do so. what I did do was go collect all the enchant armor scrolls I could find - there were 5. If I had gotten a couple more I was considering enchanting it up to comparable AC and going for it.

I guess my main thing was that I really didn't want to go into hell, or try to take down those three Deavas guarding the ziggurat, or head into Zot. I mean, I was level 26, so Zot was probably the best choice, really. But I still hadn't found a single helmet in that entire run, and wanted to see if I could up my defensive equipment a little more. and I got cocky.

[Ozarck]

Okay guys, story time again. buckle up. It's a wild one.

I played a couple more demonspawn fighters of Nemelex, who all died around dungeon 10 or so for various reasons. just some gun and run plays to clear the head. Nothing major.

Well,... hmm. Found a shadow dragon armor on dungeon 5. sweet. Ooh! the +13 Sword of the Doom Knight! 1736 gold, dungeon 5. I'm totally gonna get that! I'll even train some necromancy (maybe up to 10 or so) to make that pain brand useful.

So, armoured up and feeling fine, I trundle on down teh dungeon. I find a +3 randart dagger on dungeon 8 and switch from my starting sword for now.
Oh my gosh! the Armour of the dragon King. definitely time to train up armor skill. I shold breeze throug hearly dungeon, orc, and maybe even lair and one or two branches with this.
Oh! A +3 plate armour with rCorr! good stuff. I find the lair on dungeon 8 as well, and am on top of the world. well, eight levels below the surface of the world, but you get the idea. I clear lair 1 so my stash is relatively clear, and offload. now, to find the orc mines, since i don't have a flaming weapon yet, and I generally find orc to be easier on melee characters than lair.

Floor one goes without a hitch, and then tragedy strikes on floor 2. I fall through a shaft! For Two floors! into the damned vault! i'm screwed. there are high priests and knights in sight

I did the only wise thing and ran for it, in the vain hopes of getting out and finding a stairway before geting thoroughly boxed in. And, though I run into at least two more packs of enemies on the way out, I do! I find a pair of stairwells right beside each other and fight my way to one of them. Now, I am seriously wounded and struggling, and this is a welcome sight indeed. So up I go.

And there's an orc warlord along with an entourage. I'm already at like 1/4 health, and a knight has come up the stairs with me. going back down the stairs would be a terrible idea - it's hell down there. But staying up here? even worse. Whatever, I'm dead either way. End of story, and i didn't even get to buy that powerful sword. Ah well.

So I decide to fight it out on floor 4, use everything at my disposal. I mean, I'm dead either way.


and I'm pulling cards out of three different decks, getting elixir, repulsiveness, and a few hammers. Now, repulsiveness was a godsend because it began killing some of the weaker enemies and upping my regen (thanks demonspawn mutation). I'm blasting sorcerers with a wand of cold, and suddenly I find myself above half life. Holy crap. I clear the area! I  ... I'm alive! I lived! Holy crap.

Well, I go on to clear the rest of orc, pick up all the gold ... and I am 3 gold short of buying that sword of the doom knight.

I hope this has been an entertaining story for you. I think I might do reasonably well on this run. maybe exercise a little more wisdom late game (heh, I never learn, really.)
Thanks for reading!

[Aoi]

Ooh! the +13 Sword of the Doom Knight! 1736 gold, dungeon 5. I'm totally gonna get that! I'll even train some necromancy (maybe up to 10 or so) to make that pain brand useful.

...

Oh my gosh! the Armour of the dragon King. definitely time to train up armor skill.

As attractive as that sword looks, I wouldn't invest too much in it. It's a 2h, which means no shield, which means you're trading off a lot of defensive capabilities and, more importantly, a slot for some very useful resistances/other effects. Pain isn't too good later on either; basically everything in Pan, Hells, Tomb and what feels like half the stuff in Abyss/Zot will be immune to it, as I recall. That means you're sunk a huge pile of xp into something of highly limited use. If I don't have a good sword, and I'm able to charge through things with relative safety, I'd just treat it as a really highly enchanted mundane 2h weapon, until I can replace it with something else, like a demon sword of electrocution.

Armour of the Dragon King, on the other hand, I consider to be perfectly good endgame gear for anybody that goes toe to toe in combat. Though a good artifact armor still beats it by a long shot. But hey, four very useful modifiers and solid numbers all around.

[Ozarck]

I discovered that it was two handed the hard way ... whoops. Ah well, I have only my standard shield at the moment, and with the AC and high damage output, I cut through lair with ease. I doubt I will put more than 10 levels into necromancy, but I figured a few extra points of damage would serve me well up until late game either way. Ten levels isn't all that expensive, and demonspawn get that +1 in that skill, so it's a cheaper school than pretty much everything else in this character build.

And, like you said, it IS otherwise a nice enchanted mundane (with rMagic, too). But if i get a decent shield and a weapon that at least comes relatively close, I'll be swapping out. Still, for being able to get it right at the start of lair, it's a great buy.

That dragon king armor is a great base from which to build a set of intrinsics. I don't tend to find too many artifacts that are significantly better overall, though that might just be because I tend to die in midgame a lot. the best things about both of those items is that a) I got tehm in the early game, and b) I got them both in the same game.

[Naryar]

Is it me or the game is harder in the new version ? I've lost a string of draconian transmuter in the earlier levels, when I usually die at XL11 or so.

Also, removing wand of heal wounds make deep dwarves basically unplayable...

[Leafsnail]

Deep Dwarves were much too good before. I haven't really tried them out after the wand removal though.

[Arcvasti]

Also, removing wand of heal wounds make deep dwarves basically unplayable...

Mission accomplished.

Seriously though, Deep Dwarves are poorly designed and deserve to be made unplayable or removed. Their basic gimmick, of needing to spend max MP to regenerate HP, isn't the best to begin with. But the bad part is that this drawback can be assuaged by other means. So you end up with a character that has a bunch of advantages to make up for a disadvantage that can be heavily ameliorated by Trog or Makhleb[Who are already solid gods] and trivial by kiting a stashed troll with some form of vampirism[Which is terrible].

If we need a race with a health-regeneration gimmick based off of MP, Vine Stalkers exist and are in general much better designed. Strong ability to consistently regain HP/MP in combat in exchange for disabling panic buttons and somewhat low max HP is more interesting and less annoying then the opposite[Impaired regeneration of HP/MP in exchange for high max HP and extra panic buttons].

[EnigmaticHat]

Roguelikes (usually roguelites tho) have done "no health regeneration without items" before.  But... DCSS has a lot of damage sources and you can't really expect to go through any part of a game without taking damage.

So DD are in a weird place were they can't have much worse regen than everyone else, or they just end up as a useless race.  Instead they get *different* health regen.