Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[tompliss]

How nasty is Shoals as a melee character who's only ranged options are wands?

You have no Rod ? Any of the new evocables (Lamp of fire particularly) ?
Anyway, you're a deep dwarf, so you can put some points in evocation with your high aptitude, and get a nice boost on your wands, and even ercharge the most useful ones a bit (keep some mana for Ely).

[Graven]

Actually Phial of Flooding is the best new evocable, that Choke thing the elementals do is insane, even against Pan Lords.

Heh:

Code: [Select]

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14-a0-2328-g18f63ac (tiles) character file.

Gravenous the Scorcher (DEFE)                      Turns: 35702, Time: 01:29:19

HP  76/76        AC 12     Str  6      XL: 16   Next:  3%
MP  37/37        EV 13     Int 36      God: Vehumet [******]
Gold 1630        SH 12     Dex 16      Spells:  5 memorised, 15 levels left

rFire  + . .     SeeInvis +     r - +3,+2 orc spear (distort) (curse)
rCold  + . .     Clarity  .     G - +2 robe of Defence {+Blink rF+}
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     d - +1 buckler {AC+3}
rPois  .         rCorr    .     l - +2 helmet {SInv}
rElec  .         rRot     .     n - +0 cloak
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     D - +0 pair of gloves {Dex+3}
rMut   .         Warding  .     w - -1 pair of boots "Toqoh" {+Blink +Fly Str-1 Int+4}
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     m - amulet of Woulom {+Blink +Rage rC+ Dam+4}
MR     +....                    c - ring of Conversion {Wiz SInv}
                                k - +6 ring of intelligence

@: somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, stealthy
A: breathe flames 1, carnivore 1, clumsy 1, evolution 1
a: Renounce Religion, Breathe Fire, Evoke Blink, Evoke Berserk Rage, Evoke
Flight


You are on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Vehumet.
Vehumet is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 4 branches of the dungeon, and seen 29 of its levels.
You have also visited: Sewer, Bailey and Volcano.

You have collected 2944 gold pieces.
You have spent 1314 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 e - the +1,+9 dagger of Sin {stab, rC+ rN+}
   (You found it in a bailey)   
   
   It inflicts extra damage upon your enemies.
   
   It protects you from cold.
   It protects you from negative energy.
 r - a cursed +3,+2 orcish spear of distortion (weapon)
 J - the cursed +1,+3 short sword of Honour {vamp, rF++ rN+}
   (You found it on level 15 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It inflicts no extra harm, but heals its wielder somewhat when it strikes a
   living foe.
   
   It greatly protects you from fire.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 Q - the +8,+8 autumn katana {slice, Clar}
   (You found it on level 16 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It inflicts extra damage upon your enemies.
   
   It protects you against confusion.
Armour
 d - a +1 buckler of protection (worn)
 l - a +2 helmet of see invisible (worn)
 n - a +0 cloak (worn)
 w - the -1 pair of boots "Toqoh" (worn) {+Blink +Fly Str-1 Int+4}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 8 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your strength (-1).
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
   It lets you fly.
   It lets you blink.
 D - a +0 pair of gloves of dexterity (worn)
 G - the +2 robe of Defence (worn) {+Blink rF+}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It protects you from fire.
   It lets you blink.
Magical devices
 i - a wand of frost
 x - a wand of draining {zapped: 4}
 B - a wand of confusion
 E - a wand of magic darts
 H - a wand of cold {empty}
 K - a wand of confusion {zapped: 1}
 L - a wand of teleportation (1)
 M - a crooked brass wand
Comestibles
 f - 3 apples
 u - 2 rotting chunks of giant frog flesh
 v - a rotting chunk of yak flesh
 R - 3 meat rations
Scrolls
 g - a scroll of amnesia
 j - a scroll of teleportation
 p - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
 t - a scroll of remove curse
 y - a scroll of blinking
 C - a scroll of fear
 W - a scroll of fog
Jewellery
 a - a cursed ring of teleportation
 c - the ring of Conversion (right hand) {Wiz SInv}
   (You found it on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   [ring of wizardry]
   It enhances your eyesight.
 k - a +6 ring of intelligence (left hand)
 m - the amulet of Woulom (around neck) {+Blink +Rage rC+ Dam+4}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [amulet of rage]
   It affects your damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks (+4).
   It protects you from cold.
   It lets you blink.
 q - a brass ring
 s - a dented bone amulet
 A - a brass ring
 I - a pearl ring
 S - a vibrating iron ring
Potions
 h - 4 potions of curing
 o - 3 potions of heal wounds


   Skills:
 - Level 2,4 Dodging
 - Level 2,4 Stealth
 - Level 5,0 Shields
 - Level 11,1 Spellcasting
 * Level 19,6 Conjurations
 * Level 19,7 Fire Magic


You have 15 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Flame Tongue          Conj/Fire      #####        0%          1    None
b - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      ########     0%          3    None
c - Sticky Flame          Conj/Fire      ########     0%          4    None
d - Fireball              Conj/Fire      ########..   1%          5    None
e - Fire Storm            Conj/Fire      ########..   9%          9    #######


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (16/16)            Temple (1/1) D:4             Orc (4/4) D:11
    Elf (0/3) Orc:3          Lair (8/8) D:11         Shoals (0/5) Lair:5
  Snake (0/5) Lair:5        Slime (0/6) Lair:6       Vaults (0/5) D:15
 Depths (0/6) D:16       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmengos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One
Jiyva

Shops:
D:8 [   D:11 =(/(   Orc:3 [   Orc:4 =::*[

Portals:
Trove: D:15 (give 2 scrolls of acquirement)

Annotations:
D:8 exclusion: door


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You can breathe flames.
Your digestive system is specialised to digest meat.
You are clumsy. (Dex -2)
You evolve.

While it's gimmicky as hell, nuking Orc:4 from orbit is so satisfying. Also I got the Anime Katana if I should ever decide to go hybrid. Which might not be a bad idea, but I'll still probably die within a few xlvls, so why consider it.

[DJ]

How does Sif's channeling work with Djinns?

[Grek]

How nasty is Shoals as a melee character who's only ranged options are wands?

You have no Rod ? Any of the new evocables (Lamp of fire particularly) ?
Anyway, you're a deep dwarf, so you can put some points in evocation with your high aptitude, and get a nice boost on your wands, and even ercharge the most useful ones a bit (keep some mana for Ely).

Good point! No rods, but I have a Disc of Storms and 2! Bags of Spiders. And a Crystal Ball, I guess.

E: Make that two Discs of Storms. What.

[Dr Feelgood]

Code: [Select]

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13.1-27-ga479965 (webtiles) character file.

1665287 DrFeelgood the Archmage (level 27, 246/252 HPs)
             Began as a Demonspawn Wizard on Jan 31, 2014.
             Was the Champion of Vehumet.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 4 runes on Feb 8, 2014!
             
             The game lasted 1day 02:02:54 (141201 turns).

DrFeelgood the Archmage (Demonspawn Wizard)    Turns: 141201, Time: 1, 02:02:55

HP 246/252       AC 18     Str  9      XL: 27
MP  36/50        EV 12     Int 30      God: Vehumet [******]
Gold 7586        SH 25     Dex 14      Spells: 20 memorised,  0 levels left

Res.Fire  : + + .   See Invis. : +   E - staff of air
Res.Cold  : + + .   Warding    : .   k - +0 robe of Theory {rElec rF+ rN+ Acc+3 SInv Stlth+}
Life Prot.: + . .   Conserve   : +   i - +5 shield of Resistance {rF+ rC+ MR+}
Res.Poison: +       Res.Corr.  : +   b - +2 wizard hat
Res.Elec. : +       Clarity    : .   W - +2 cloak {rCorr, Cons}
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   (gloves unavailable)
Res.Mut.  : +       Stasis     : .   G - +2 pair of boots {run}
Res.Rott. : .       Flight     : +   O - amulet of Wuequd {rMut rC+ Dex+1 SInv}
Saprovore : . . .                    P - ring of wizardry
                                     z - ring of poison resistance

@: flying, slightly contaminated, hasted, glowing, drained, very quick, quite
resistant to hostile enchantments, very unstealthy
A: claws 3, powered by death 3, powered by pain 3, +30% hp, AC +8
a: Renounce Religion
}: 4/15 runes: barnacled, slimy, silver, gossamer


You escaped.
You worshipped Vehumet.
Vehumet was exalted by your worship.
You were not hungry.

You visited 10 branches of the dungeon, and saw 73 of its levels.
You also visited: Labyrinth, Sewer, Ice Cave and Wizlab.

You collected 9998 gold pieces.
You spent 2432 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 d - a +0,+0 short sword of distortion
 t - a +2 blowgun
 I - the +9,+9 Staff of Wucad Mu
   (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
Missiles
 f - 19 curare-tipped needles
Armour
 b - a +2 wizard hat (worn)
 i - the +5 shield of Resistance (worn) {rF+ rC+ MR+}
   (You took it off a deep elf fighter on level 25 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It protects you from fire.
   It protects you from cold.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 k - the +0 robe of Theory (worn) {rElec rF+ rN+ Acc+3 SInv Stlth+}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   It affects your accuracy (+3).
   It protects you from fire.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It makes you much more stealthy.
 G - a +2 pair of boots of running (worn)
 W - a +2 cloak of preservation (worn)
Magical devices
 s - a wand of heal wounds (5)
 x - a wand of heal wounds (2)
 B - a wand of teleportation (3)
Comestibles
 A - a pear
 D - an apple
 F - a meat ration
Scrolls
 e - 8 scrolls of fog
 l - 3 scrolls of remove curse
 m - 10 scrolls of recharging
 o - 4 scrolls of fear
 p - a scroll of enchant weapon III
 y - a scroll of blinking
Jewellery
 h - an uncursed amulet of rage
 n - the ring "Itsa" {+/*Tele rElec}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Crypt)   
   
   [ring of teleportation]
   It insulates you from electricity.
 q - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 r - an uncursed amulet of faith
 u - an uncursed ring of sustenance
 z - a ring of poison resistance (left claw)
 H - the ring "Joarr" {Regen SInv}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   [ring of regeneration]
   It enhances your eyesight.
 J - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
 K - the amulet "Clomec" {Gourm rElec}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Realm of Zot)   
   
   [amulet of the gourmand]
   It insulates you from electricity.
 L - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 M - the amulet of the Worm {Stasis rElec}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   [amulet of stasis]
   It insulates you from electricity.
 O - the amulet of Wuequd (around neck) {rMut rC+ Dex+1 SInv}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   [amulet of resist mutation]
   It affects your dexterity (+1).
   It protects you from cold.
   It enhances your eyesight.
 P - a ring of wizardry (right claw)
 X - an uncursed amulet of clarity
Potions
 c - 9 potions of restore abilities
 g - a potion of cure mutation
 v - 2 potions of brilliance
Magical staves
 E - an uncursed staff of air (weapon)
Orbs of Power
 a - the Orb of Zot
Miscellaneous
 j - a fan of gales


   Skills:
 * Level 12.0(11.5) Fighting
   Level 2.7(2.3) Long Blades
 * Level 8.1(7.6) Staves
 - Level 3.8(3.4) Dodging
 - Level 5.0(4.6) Stealth
 - Level 8.4(7.9) Shields
 O Level 27(26.3) Spellcasting
 - Level 14.3(13.8) Conjurations
 - Level 10.0(9.5) Charms
 - Level 1.0(0.6) Summonings
 - Level 9.4(8.9) Necromancy
 * Level 7.9(7.4) Translocations
 - Level 11.4(10.9) Fire Magic
 - Level 20.0(19.4) Air Magic
 + Level 19.6(19.0) Evocations


You couldn't memorise any spells.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           ####         0%          1    None
b - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
c - Delayed Fireball      Conj/Fire      N/A          1%          7    None
d - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ########..   0%          2    None
e - Tornado               Air            ########..   4%          9    #####..
f - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      #######...   1%          3    None
g - Iskenderun's Battles  Conj/Chrm      #######.     1%          4    None
h - Iskenderun's Mystic   Conj           #######.     1%          4    None
i - Fireball              Conj/Fire      #######...   1%          5    None
j - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ########..   0%          2    None
k - Ozocubu's Armour      Chrm/Ice       ######....   1%          3    None
l - Haste                 Chrm           #######.     1%          6    None
m - Bolt of Fire          Conj/Fire      #######...   1%          6    None
n - Force Lance           Conj           #######.     1%          5    None
o - Flight                Chrm/Air       ########..   0%          3    None
p - Summon Butterflies    Summ           #####...     1%          1    None
q - Control Teleport      Chrm/Tloc      ######....   1%          4    None
r - Phase Shift           Tloc           ######....   1%          5    None
s - Iron Shot             Conj/Erth      #####.....   1%          6    None
t - Controlled Blink      Tloc           N/A          17%         7    None
Win #32. I played under a new account, because I wanted a higher win rate. 42% makes me feel sad. 50% isn't much better though. I was planning on doing a 15-rune run, but I got bored.

[Grek]

Update on my DDHe: He's dead due to combination of Jory and 2 Stone Giants and a vault warden in Vaults: 4. Very strong character, but lacking in actual escape options, ala blink. I feel like if I had either found Conversation (and thus had more scrolls of blinking) or had trained spellcasting and got some escape spells/meaningful ranged offense, this could have been avoided.

[tompliss]

You were a heavy armored character, so spells are hard to get to, you get 2 solutions : God abilities, and Evocables.
Blink scrolls are a really limited ressource (doesn't mean you shouldn't use em when in danger), but wands are less so, and rods even less. As a Deep Dwarf, a wand of hasting is perhaps the most game-breaking item you can find, as it will have nearly infinite uses

If/when I play heavy armored DD, I clearly don't try to go for spells, as the evocabkles can be even more powerfull in his hands than in anyone else's.

[Robsoie]

Usually the blink scrolls, along the teleport ones are the first scrolls to disappear from my inventory as soon as a creature breathing fire appear and shoot instantly or a creature capable of casting sticky flame come close.

That and the awesome scroll of acquirement i just forgot i even found in autoexplore

[tompliss]

You can modify the "RCfile" to have to press enter on special occasion. any line including "scroll of acquirement", for example :-°
And by the way, if you're playing a character without any point in spellcasting of any magic school (doesn't include invo/evo), acquirement of a staff have 75% chances of giving you a rod. increases to 100% of you worship Trog.
Can be really useful to get a very good item for a deep dwarf

[Robsoie]

Interesting, thanks.

[freeformschooler]

First ever run to earn any runes. I just finished Shoals and am now one rune away from Zot, but the only branches with runes I can see are Vault/Slime, and LearnDB makes Vault sound scary. Should I go in anyway or clear out the dungeon first? Or should I do Slime instead? I have an rCorr ring.

Spoiler: Char (click to show/hide)

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13.1-27-ga479965 (webtiles) character file.

freeformschooler the Warrior (Demonspawn Fighter)  Turns: 66233, Time: 06:48:57

HP 148/148       AC 41     Str 22      XL: 18   Next: 20%
MP  36/36        EV  5     Int  9      God: Makhleb [*****.]
Gold 1577        SH  0     Dex 17 (18) Spells:  0 memorised, 17 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : +   v - +7 great sword (slice)
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   V - +9 plate armour of the Duchess {Dex+3 Int+1}
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   (no shield)
Res.Poison: +       Res.Corr.  : .   (helmet unavailable)
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   f - +1 cloak {rPois}
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : +   k - +2 pair of orc gauntlets
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   I - +1 pair of boots of the Blind Marksman {+Inv Stlth++}
Res.Rott. : .       Flight     : .   S - amulet of guardian spirit
Saprovore : . . .                    u - ring of regeneration
                                     U - +5 ring of protection

@: heavily drained, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely
unstealthy
A: antennae 3, +10% mp, nightstalker 3, powered by pain 1, AC +3, EV -1, Int -2
a: Minor Destruction, Lesser Servant of Makhleb, Major Destruction, Greater
Servant of Makhleb, Renounce Religion, Evoke Invisibility
}: 2/15 runes: barnacled, gossamer


You are on level 5 of the Shoals.
You worship Makhleb.
Makhleb is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 8 branches of the dungeon, and seen 46 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 1 time.
You have also visited: Labyrinth.

You have collected 3959 gold pieces.
You have spent 2309 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 v - a +7,+7 great sword of slicing (weapon)
 B - the +4,+8 war axe of Wampam {flame, *Tele rC+ Str+3 Dex+3 SInv}
   (You found it on level 9 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It emits flame when wielded, causing extra injury to most foes and up to
   double damage against particularly susceptible opponents. Big, fiery blades
   are also staple armaments of hydra-hunters.
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your dexterity (+3).
   It protects you from cold.
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It causes teleportation.
 K - a +4 blowgun
Missiles
 p - 13 poisoned javelins (quivered)
 q - 2 curare-tipped needles
 r - 9 poisoned needles
 t - 2 needles of paralysis
Armour
 f - a +1 cloak of poison resistance (worn)
 k - a +2 pair of orcish gauntlets (worn)
 I - the +1 pair of boots of the Blind Marksman (worn) {+Inv Stlth++}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 5 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It lets you turn invisible.
   It makes you much more stealthy.
 V - the +9 plate armour of the Duchess (worn) {Dex+3 Int+1}
   (You found it in a labyrinth)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+1).
   It affects your dexterity (+3).
Magical devices
 a - a wand of fireball {zapped: 2}
 i - a wand of heal wounds (4)
 j - a wand of disintegration (1)
 l - a wand of teleportation (2)
 x - a wand of teleportation (2)
 y - a wand of paralysis {zapped: 2}
 A - a wand of confusion
 C - a wand of slowing (12)
 D - a wand of flame (5)
 G - a wand of confusion (6)
 H - a wand of lightning (2)
 P - a wand of cold (4)
Comestibles
 d - 2 bread rations
Scrolls
 e - 3 scrolls of identify
 g - 4 scrolls of fear
 F - 2 scrolls of fog
 M - a scroll of teleportation
 Q - 11 scrolls of remove curse
Jewellery
 c - an uncursed ring of poison resistance
 m - an uncursed ring of invisibility
 u - a ring of regeneration (right hand)
 z - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities
 S - an amulet of guardian spirit (around neck)
 U - a +5 ring of protection (left hand)
 X - the amulet "Etuwkusehi" {Cons Str+1 Int+3}
   (You took it off a merfolk on level 2 of the Shoals)   
   
   [amulet of conservation]
   It affects your strength (+1).
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
Potions
 s - 4 potions of flight
 E - 3 potions of resistance
 T - 7 potions of curing
 Y - 3 potions of restore abilities
Miscellaneous
 b - a sack of spiders
 h - a lamp of fire
 n - a phial of floods
 o - a stone of tremors
 w - a plain deck of changes {drawn: 2}
 R - a plain deck of war {the Helm, drawn: 6}


   Skills:
 * Level 16.4(14.5) Fighting
 - Level 16.0(14.2) Long Blades
 - Level 4.1(2.7) Axes
 - Level 14.6(12. Armour
   Level 2.6(1.3) Shields
 - Level 14.3(12.5) Invocations
 - Level 13.0(11.3) Evocations


You have 17 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (20/27)            Temple (1/1) D:6             Orc (4/4) D:11
    Elf (2/3) Orc:3          Lair (8/8) D:11         Shoals (5/5) Lair:4
 Spider (5/5) Lair:5       Vaults (1/5) D:19       
 Slime: Lair:6-8

[tompliss]

You should aim for the vault as your next rune.
Going deeper in the dungeon (but not last floor) may get you a little more XP, but don't forget to flee if you see something that may be too dangerous for you.
You should be able to clear the vault. You should clear totally each floor before going to the next one, obviously, and your nightstalker mutation will help you on last floor.

There are special monsters in the vault, including one that can "recall" other monsters from the same floor, and one that can close doors and lock stairs, both when they see you. Having a shorter line of sight means you are already close to them when they act, so you have more chances to get into melee with them than other characters. And don't forget to summon a few demons before going down on stairs, especially for the last floor.
Your AC is clearly enough to resist most attacks in the vault, but don't forget that there are many branded weapons and that the stone giants' large rocks hurt, so use the walls and maybe try to get rings of rF and rC. The regen one shouldn't be really useful down there, and elemental resists mean a lot more than 5AC when facing branded weapons. also, wearing your cons amulet will prevent you from getting your scrolls and potions destroyed by all the frost/flame bolts from the yaktaurs and the other branded attacks.

[Grek]

Your resists are really bad, and Slime has a surprising number of elemental attacks. In Vault, the big things to worry about are, Stone Giants throwing giant rocks at you (doable with your AC) Yaktaur firing squads (use demons) and getting unlucky with a unique (teleport away!). I think you can handle Vaults if you're careful.

[Seriyu]

Say I'm a demonspawn fighter with a one hander and a shield, and I have claws 2 (I think? Maybe 1), should I just drop the shield and use a one hander with claws for the offhand punch? I haven't put any exp into shields yet, been working on armor. I could proooobably switch to unarmed but I have put a pretty decent amount of exp into maces & flails.

While I'm here, I assume 2 handers don't get offhand punches?

[tompliss]

Auxiliary Attack with claws :
+1d3 × (Claws ranks) damage, 33% chances on a hit (UC >= 1d20), Negated by Blade Hands or by wearing gloves, adds bleeding : 3%HP × (Claws ranks).
So basically, on rank 2, it adds 1,3 damage + 1%HP on average, if you have 20 in unarmed combat.

Could you post a dump of you character ?

Depending on your loot, it may or may not be good. In early game, wearing a buckler will be much better, but a shield would not (more penalties). Good artifact gloves would be better, but as a demonspawn, you have chances to get the final claws3, that is really good as well, for a hand slot.

If you're still in the early game, you could even stop using weapons and go for unarmed combat (trolls begin with claws3 and that's what make them the most heavy hitter in the game at skill level 27, you could get really high with just claws2, and demonspawn mutations have high chances of giving you claws3, on top of other unarmed mutations).

Don't forget that, if you get Claws3, those add more heads to hydras


PS: yeah, you need neither shield nor 2 handers to offhand punch.