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Author Topic: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.  (Read 1683473 times)

Moron

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11025 on: September 23, 2013, 03:05:59 pm »

Btw, new vehumet sucks, old vehu gave spells much earlier.

Eh? New Vehumet starts giving spells at * piety, old gave nothing until *****. Though the first few spells he gives might be useless if you already have a good starting book.

The only thing that sucks is he no longer reduces cost of spells by 1 making him weaker in the late game when you would probably have found as many spells as you need anyway
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Nivim

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11026 on: September 23, 2013, 03:17:08 pm »

 Well, the Vehumet changes were intended as a net nerf, and about 1/4 of the devs say it's not enough.
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Imagine a cool peice of sky-blue and milk-white marble about 3cm by 2cm and by 0.5cm, containing a tiny 2mm malacolite crystal. Now imagine the miles of metamorphic rock it's embedded in that no pick or chisel will ever touch. Then, imagine that those miles will melt back into their mantle long before any telescope even refracts an image of their planet. The watchers will be so excited to have that image too.

Antioch

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11027 on: September 23, 2013, 03:46:41 pm »

Well, the Vehumet changes were intended as a net nerf, and about 1/4 of the devs say it's not enough.

Well that sucks, I always considered Sif to already be the better magic god. Vehumet had some nice bonuses but sif's channeling beats mana reduction+mana on kill bigtime.
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You finish ripping the human corpse of Sigmund into pieces.
This raw flesh tastes delicious!

Niveras

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11028 on: September 23, 2013, 04:19:25 pm »

Vehumet also increases the range of conjuration spells by 1, which may or may not be useful (depending on what you're using).
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Nivim

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11029 on: September 23, 2013, 04:44:52 pm »

Can Sif get you firestorm by lair?
 Vehumet's wizardry bonus and range bonus generally allow you to get a lot more firepower functional early on, then in mid and late game the MP on kills allows you to keep blasting instead of stopping to recharge— and of course, that MP doesn't cost food or use Invocations like Channeling does, so you can safely spend less XP on Spellcasting (& 0*Invo') and much more on your spell skills.
 Oh, and Vehumet is convenient for Zig floors because those range+storms let you take out annoying things before they even see you, then you're back up to full most of the time. Perhaps not as convenient as Ashenzari, but still good.
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Imagine a cool peice of sky-blue and milk-white marble about 3cm by 2cm and by 0.5cm, containing a tiny 2mm malacolite crystal. Now imagine the miles of metamorphic rock it's embedded in that no pick or chisel will ever touch. Then, imagine that those miles will melt back into their mantle long before any telescope even refracts an image of their planet. The watchers will be so excited to have that image too.

Leafsnail

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11030 on: September 23, 2013, 07:23:17 pm »

Once you get the crowd control spells going Vehumet is great.  You can cast stuff essentially for free.
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Moron

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11031 on: September 24, 2013, 12:04:34 pm »

I think the idea was not so much for it to be a nerf, but that god gifts should be less predictable. Kiku's books were changed to random ones for the same reason.

It is a nerf in some ways because you no longer get any summoning spells from Vehumet, the total number of spells given is less and you get less choice about when to learn them. (It can be really annoying if you learn a gifted spell then don't have enough spell slots left to learn the next one which is better, and don't have any means of forgetting the ones you already have.)

Overall IMO Vehumet is very powerful in the early-mid game as he will start giving good offensive spells much earlier than Sif, but weaker in extended. He is especially good for Wizards who start off with a versatile spell book but not much firepower, while maybe not so good for backgrounds that already have good offensive magic, eg IE or FE.
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Niveras

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11032 on: September 24, 2013, 03:27:20 pm »

Sif Muna is for casting.

Vehumet is for blasting.
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lemon10

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11033 on: September 24, 2013, 03:41:36 pm »

Oh, and Vehumet is convenient for Zig floors because those range+storms let you take out annoying things before they even see you, then you're back up to full most of the time. Perhaps not as convenient as Ashenzari, but still good.
Sif is IMHO significantly better for Zig. While Vehumet is great while you still have mana, and you can go entire floors without ever running out, once you do run out you are in trouble.

With Sif (assuming things like haste+swiftness and sufficient food/necromuation) you can just retreat a bit and channel your mana back.
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Because the solution to not being able to control your dakka is MOAR DAKKA.

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Nivim

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11034 on: September 24, 2013, 03:43:40 pm »

Just like with the staff?
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Imagine a cool peice of sky-blue and milk-white marble about 3cm by 2cm and by 0.5cm, containing a tiny 2mm malacolite crystal. Now imagine the miles of metamorphic rock it's embedded in that no pick or chisel will ever touch. Then, imagine that those miles will melt back into their mantle long before any telescope even refracts an image of their planet. The watchers will be so excited to have that image too.

Antioch

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11035 on: September 25, 2013, 12:34:56 pm »

True evocation with the channelling staff and crystal ball (clarity prevents that annoying confusion) might actually beat sif regen.

Btw does anybody ever use conjure ball lightening? It just seems to be too damaging to yourself even with electric resist.
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This raw flesh tastes delicious!

Leafsnail

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11036 on: September 25, 2013, 12:39:59 pm »

Sif is IMHO significantly better for Zig. While Vehumet is great while you still have mana, and you can go entire floors without ever running out, once you do run out you are in trouble.

With Sif (assuming things like haste+swiftness and sufficient food/necromuation) you can just retreat a bit and channel your mana back.
This is surely backwards.  In a Zig there's not much room to run, but plenty of high HD monsters to kill for MP.
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Antioch

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11037 on: September 25, 2013, 03:43:37 pm »

Dammit! I didn't notice a ghost moth because I switched see invisible for wizardry in order to cast tornado (I thought ghost moths only spawned on spider bottom). I made a controlled teleport to the up stairs only to find 3 redbacks waiting for me >_>

Code: [Select]

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.12.3 (tiles) character file.

130610 CPTANT the Aerator (level 17, -12/101 HPs)
             Began as a Human Air Elementalist on Sept 25, 2013.
             Was a High Priest of Vehumet.
             Mangled by a redback (14 damage)
             ... on Level 2 of the Spider Nest.
             The game lasted 02:44:44 (58829 turns).

CPTANT the Aerator (Human Air Elementalist)        Turns: 58829, Time: 02:44:44

HP -12/101       AC 12     Str  5 (10) XL: 17   Next: 97%
MP   1/37        EV 16     Int 23      God: Vehumet [*****.]
Gold 802         SH  0     Dex 13 (16) Spells:  9 memorised, 10 levels left

Res.Fire  : + + .   See Invis. : .   L - +1,+3 great sword (elec)
Res.Cold  : + + .   Warding    : .   z - +2 robe {rC+ rF+}
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   (no shield)
Res.Poison: +       Res.Corr.  : .   s - +2 wizard hat {Int+3}
Res.Elec. : +       Clarity    : .   u - +1 cloak
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   l - +0 pair of gloves
Res.Mut.  : .       Rnd.Telep. : +   x - +2 pair of boots
Res.Rott. : .       Ctrl.Telep.: +   f - amulet of the gourmand
Gourmand  : +       Flight     : .   K - ring of teleport control
                                     p - ring of teleportation

@: mildly poisoned, very slightly contaminated, hasted, very quick, somewhat
resistant to hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy
A: Str +1
a: Renounce Religion, Evoke Teleportation


You were on level 2 of the Spider Nest.
You worshipped Vehumet.
Vehumet was exalted by your worship.
You were full.

You visited 6 branches of the dungeon, and saw 30 of its levels.
You also visited: Labyrinth.

You collected 2645 gold pieces.
You spent 1863 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 L - a +1,+3 great sword of electrocution (weapon)
 N - the +7,+8 demon blade "Bloodbane" {slice, *Rage +Rage Stlth-}
   (You took it off an orc on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   It inflicts extra damage upon your enemies.
   
   It lets you go berserk.
   It makes you angry.
   It makes you less stealthy.
Armour
 a - a +0 robe
 l - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
 s - a +2 wizard hat of intelligence (worn)
 u - a +1 cloak (worn)
 x - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
 z - a +2 robe of resistance (worn)
Magical devices
 d - a wand of digging (9)
 g - a wand of disintegration (18)
 h - a wand of disintegration (3)
 m - a wand of teleportation (3)
Comestibles
 c - 10 bread rations
Scrolls
 r - 2 scrolls of magic mapping
 t - 3 scrolls of remove curse
 B - a scroll of vorpalise weapon
 G - a scroll of fog {unknown}
 I - 4 scrolls of identify
Jewellery
 b - an uncursed ring of wizardry
 f - an amulet of the gourmand (around neck)
 j - the ring of Woulo {rC+ rN+ Acc+3 SInv}
   (You took it off a kobold on level 9 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of protection from cold]
   It affects your accuracy (+3).
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It enhances your eyesight.
 n - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
 o - an uncursed ring of poison resistance
 p - a ring of teleportation (left hand)
 v - an uncursed ring of fire
 w - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
 A - an uncursed amulet of warding
 J - an uncursed amulet of clarity
 K - a ring of teleport control (right hand)
Potions
 i - a potion of resistance
 k - 5 potions of restore abilities
 q - 3 potions of agility
 D - a potion of speed
 E - a potion of flight
 H - 2 potions of brilliance


   Skills:
 - Level 0,2 Fighting
 - Level 6,9 Long Blades
 + Level 0,6 Throwing
 - Level 2,7 Armour
 - Level 7,9 Dodging
 - Level 2,0 Stealth
 * Level 1,5 Traps
 + Level 0,4 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 14,6 Spellcasting
 - Level 15,8 Conjurations
 - Level 3,0 Charms
 * Level 18,7 Air Magic
 - Level 0,2 Evocations


You had 10 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Shock                 Conj/Air       #####        0%          1    None
b - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       #######...   1%          2    None
c - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       #######...   1%          2    None
d - Static Discharge      Conj/Air       ########.    0%          3    None
e - Lightning Bolt        Conj/Air       ########..   1%          5    #......
f - Flight                Chrm/Air       #######...   1%          3    None
g - Airstrike             Air            ########..   1%          4    None
h - Freezing Cloud        Conj/Ice/Air   #######...   1%          6    #####..
i - Tornado               Air            ########..   56%         9    #######


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (14/27)            Temple (1/1) D:4             Orc (4/4) D:10
    Elf (0/3) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:11          Swamp (1/5) Lair:3
 Spider (2/5) Lair:6        Slime (0/6) Lair:8     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
the Shining One
Beogh
Jiyva

Shops:
D:4: %  D:5: *=*  D:7: !  D:10: [  Orc:1: (  Orc:4: %?=*

Portals:
Trove: D:11 (show abyssal rune of Zot)

Annotations
D:2 exclusions: 2 downstairs and upstairs
D:3 Grinder
D:4 exclusions: downstairs and upstairs
D:6 exclusion: downstairs
D:7 exclusion: downstairs
D:8 exclusion: downstairs
D:9 exclusion: downstairs
D:10 exclusion: downstairs
D:14 Aizul
Orc:2 exclusion: downstairs
Lair:2 exclusion: 2 downstairs
Lair:5 exclusion: downstairs
Lair:6 exclusion: 2 downstairs
Spider:1 exclusion: Roxanne, Roxanne
Spider:2 exclusions: upstairs and 4 more exclusions


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

Your muscles are strong (Str +1).


Message History

* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The jumping spider barely misses you. The jumping spider leaps!
You feel protected.
Your possessions no longer seem quite so burdensome.
You may choose your destination (press '.' or delete to select).
Expect minor deviation.
You are very lightly contaminated with residual magic.
3 redbacks come into view.
You feel yourself speed up. The redback barely misses you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel sick.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel sick.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel sick.
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
The redback bites you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The redback bites you!
You die...

..˜˜.### ##..##...## ##
#..˜˜˜˜#  ####^....##.##
..##˜˜˜#     #§........##
.#˜˜˜˜˜#     #§§#....#..#
˜  ˜#˜##     ####^.....^#
#  # ##         ##.....##
                 ##.#...#
                 ##..#..#
                ##...####
                #....####
                #@ss...^#
                ##.##s..#
                 #####..#
                      .....
                      ..s....
                      #^.....
                       ###..
                          .


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |    20 |       |       |       |       |       ||    20
       Short sword       |    11 |    51 |       |       |       |       ||    62
       Long sword        |       |       |    44 |    69 |    70 |   143 ||   326
       Great sword       |       |       |       |       |       |   178 ||   178
Throw: Javelin           |       |       |       |     5 |       |       ||     5
       Throwing net      |       |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
 Cast: Shock             |    55 |   191 |   332 |   323 |     1 |    12 ||   914
       Swiftness         |       |     5 |     5 |    26 |    15 |    23 ||    74
       Static Discharge  |       |     6 |    97 |   154 |    46 |   110 ||   413
       Repel Missiles    |       |       |     1 |    10 |     9 |     6 ||    26
       Lightning Bolt    |       |       |     6 |   127 |   225 |   334 ||   692
       Airstrike         |       |       |       |    33 |   103 |   224 ||   360
       Freezing Cloud    |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Flight            |       |       |       |       |     1 |     3 ||     4
       Tornado           |       |       |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |    12 |    10 |     4 |    16 ||    42
  Use: Potion            |       |     2 |    11 |     7 |     5 |    14 ||    39
       Scroll            |       |       |    14 |    14 |    10 |     9 ||    47
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |     1 |     1 |       |       |     1 ||     3
       Paralysed         |       |       |     3 |       |       |       ||     3

Logged
You finish ripping the human corpse of Sigmund into pieces.
This raw flesh tastes delicious!

lemon10

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11038 on: September 25, 2013, 06:11:54 pm »

Just like with the staff?
Just like with the staff, except over twice as fast (at 16 invocation/evocation, staff gives an average of 1.35 mana per turn, while Sif gives 3.5 mana per turn (with slightly less at lower then 24 int)) and not requiring a weapon slot. Over 10 turns that's the difference between gaining enough mana to cast one firestorm (0-30 mana, with an average of 13.5), and gaining enough to cast almost 4 (10-60, with an average of 35).

I will admit that using the crystal ball+clarity might be more efficient then Sif, although seems more risky (with a chance of int drain/mana drain even at very high evocation). But I haven't really ever tried using it, so I don't know for sure.
Sif is IMHO significantly better for Zig. While Vehumet is great while you still have mana, and you can go entire floors without ever running out, once you do run out you are in trouble.

With Sif (assuming things like haste+swiftness and sufficient food/necromuation) you can just retreat a bit and channel your mana back.
This is surely backwards.  In a Zig there's not much room to run, but plenty of high HD monsters to kill for MP.
Disclamer: Everything I am saying is from my experience doing Zig's, and only really applies to pure casters (since I have never done one with anything else). I also haven't done any zigs since angel floors were introduced, but I don't think they would really have a significant effect of strategy.
Spoiler: Assumptions (click to show/hide)

I will concede Vehumet is better in easier levels. When you are able to kill 5+ enemies with every single storm, and very few survive the first storm (and none survive a second), then you have basically infinite mana.
The real problem is when you start to come up against multiple tough resistant pan-lords and some of the other nastier enemy sets (godamn dwarves).

Suddenly you have enemies that you cannot ignore, and that require a significant amount of mana each to kill. Now, it is entirely possible that you will kill enough enemies with every single storm to keep your mana from getting too low, or get decent regen rolls on the strong enemies that you kill. But if you do run out of mana then it is significantly harder to come back from.

Zig levels aren't actually very small. By the time you reach a decent depth they are 30+ wide, and assuming you run straight to the front and start throwing spells out there (and rapidly deplete your mana pool), there will be quite a bit of space open behind you to retreat back into, especially since your spells will probably kill the first wave of enemies. It isn't a huge amount of space, and won't last forever, but it is usually enough for a couple of channeling sessions. You can also channel between castings, since you have haste you can regain quite a bit of mana before most enemies actually manage to reach you.

With haste+swiftness, your rapid movement speed allows you to back off very quickly after throwing spells out there and channel a significant amount of mana back. With the staff the amount isn't very much, just 0-2 storms (along with having to swap your weapon to the staff, or keeping it on and loosing resists and melee potential), but with Sif you get 3-5, enough to make it worthwhile.
-----
That said, I haven't actually ran through a Zig with Vehumet, so I wouldn't know how strong he actually is in one. But I have finished one with Sif, so I know that her channeling is extremely powerful and useful in a Zig.
Logged
And with a mighty leap, the evil Conservative flies through the window, escaping our heroes once again!
Because the solution to not being able to control your dakka is MOAR DAKKA.

That's it. We've finally crossed over and become the nation of Da Orky Boyz.

tilkau

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #11039 on: September 26, 2013, 03:00:09 am »

^
I just finished a Zig with a TeCj of Veh, using Tornado, Discord, OoD and Ice Storm. Only real MP issue was when ghost moths turned up (solved with a few wand of fire zaps and some energy channeling)
Tornado at high spellpower is excellent for keeping MP up and inflicting damage throughout silence -- my MP was usually maxed out.  No melee of consequence.

Strategically, my impression is that Tornado is much better than Fire|Ice Storm, because of the movable AoE, and (provided they have a decent sized entourage) can take out Pan lords in 3-4 casts.


I didn't encounter a floor with multiple Pan lords. I've got another Zig lined up, so maybe in that one.


(This is actually the first Zig I've ever done.)

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