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[Reelya]

I saw a youtube video I think, that was saying how in the West, they nailed CG because they had the early example of Pixar/Toy Story, and so basically after that everyone went "oh that's how you do CG" and just emulated that general aesthetic, whereas Japan never really had their "killer app" so to speak, and CG's been more hit and miss, and the video came to the conclusion that American CG animation is just objectively better based on that.

However, that Pixar looking stuff sure gets samey after a while. Not having one "proper" way to do something can be a long-term advantage, because you're more free to break conventions. Sometimes having a really good example come up too soon can be a bad thing. If you look at American full CGI movies that try for any sort of photorealism, they basically don't exist, you need to look to Japan or elsewhere for those, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children for example. Or all the weird variations of cell-shaded 3D in Japan, and character designs ranging from cartoony to anime-esque to realistic. If they had in fact had an all-Japanese equivalent to Toy Story then those oddball uses of CG might not even exist in Japan today.

(btw we've has this debate before, and when comparing movies from east or west it's important to take note of relative budgets. Toy Story 3 for example cost $200 million vs Appleseed's $10 million. No shit Appleseed doesn't look as good. You wouldn't get a $10 million CG film in cinemas in the USA, so comparing them is like comparing box office movies to direct to DVD movies).

[Cruxador]

I remember on one site, maybe MAL forums, someone trying to downplay the amount of isekai. Probably the typical rabid fan of something that can't bear even the slightest criticism. This was at peak isekai, and that season I counted 9 things that fit into the isekai trope, though including SAO in that by extension: basically most modern isekai are effectively about being trapped in an MMORPG-like fantasy world, rather than being transported to a general fantasy world. The new isekais are all about stats, classes, parties and gear, so the whole thing is inspired by MMOs and/or computer RPGs specifically. Whether or not the alternate world they go into is real or virtual is not important, that's just setting fluff, not the core genre mechanics.

So, this guy was saying that because 40+ other shows came out in the same season that weren't isekai, then there really weren't that many isekai's coming out and saying 9 isekai shows in one season was near-saturation was exaggeration. But, 9 per season effective meant a new isekai adaptation was starting every 10 days on average, at least at this point which was a year or two ago. The fact that other stuff was airing in between is unrelated.

To clarify, I'm not saying there's no isekai. Mostly that the focus is swinging back to schools. Even if you look at the Maou one for the example which most directly prompted this thought, it's set in a school and not an isekai. But just looking at the list of what's airing this season and remembering the (rather disappointing, to me) last season, it seems like there's more battle harem schools compared to wish fulfillment isekai.

However, that Pixar looking stuff sure gets samey after a while. Not having one "proper" way to do something can be a long-term advantage, because you're more free to break conventions. Sometimes having a really good example come up too soon can be a bad thing. If you look at American full CGI movies that try for any sort of photorealism, they basically don't exist, you need to look to Japan or elsewhere for those, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children for example. Or all the weird variations of cell-shaded 3D in Japan, and character designs ranging from cartoony to anime-esque to realistic. If they had in fact had an all-Japanese equivalent to Toy Story then those oddball uses of CG might not even exist in Japan today.

Although I agree with regards to prevalence, I also think Beowulf (2007) is far more realism-oriented than something like Advent Children, which although nowhere near Pixar is still pretty decidedly stylized with regards to things like facial shape and hair.

[Reelya]

To clarify, I'm not saying there's no isekai. Mostly that the focus is swinging back to schools. Even if you look at the Maou one for the example which most directly prompted this thought, it's set in a school and not an isekai. But just looking at the list of what's airing this season and remembering the (rather disappointing, to me) last season, it seems like there's more battle harem schools compared to wish fulfillment isekai.

Yeah of course. These things come in waves, and between waves you still expect a trickle. I'm sure studios get inside information about what shows are lined up in the different time slots too, so they can see if there's a gap in the market in a specific season as well. So if there was literally no other known show lined up for a specific season that had the isekai/MMO thing going then you can bet other studios get a good idea about that while working out their own programming.

As for dominant genres, I think those are generally based on whatever is seen as being a crowd-pleaser. Something like isekai, a school setting, harems are flexible enough to tell either light or dark stories, so you can make that appeal to a wide range of viewers, whereas something such as psychological horror or gore or military sci fi for example is going to appeal to a more limited subset of viewers. So you're less likely to see big waves of things like that.

[Jopax]

Wait when the hell did the second season of Re:Zero become a thing?

Was bored and browsing the offerings of the season when I came upon an episode higher than I remember coming out way back when. Might be a pleasant surprise, tho at this point it's been so bloody long I barely remember anything other than the dude dying and the cute demon maids or something? Also a sky whale?

What this does do is give me hope an unexpected season 2 of Grimgar might happen, because I need more of that lovely artstyle in my eyes ASAP

[Reelya]

I doubt Grimgar 2 will be a thing.

EDIT: as justification for that, it looks like the Grimgar anime volumes sold about 3000 copies of each volume, compared to 10000 for each volume of Re:Zero. The volumes of Re:Zero stayed on the top sales charts for about 3 weeks vs one week for Grimgar. Here's a later volume of the Re:Zero anime still in the top 10 in week 3 after its release. They care about Japanese sales because they're making a lot more on that vs the revenue if it becomes popular in the West specifically, where they only get dribs and drabs through licensing to third parties.

In terms of sales they're in a different league, and there are a lot of series in between the two in terms of sales. Think about it. If one product will sell three times as much as another, for the same cost to produce, that's a big deal when profit margins are thin. And for a series that sold well on DVD before you have much more of a realistic expectation that it'll sell well again, to the existing customer base, whereas a lot of people might not put money down for Grimgar 2 on BD if they didn't already get Grimgar 1. For series that sold < 5000 copies per volume then it's safer to just throw that one away and make an original series instead, since anyone can then jump in and buy the new series fresh, so it's far more likely to be an impulse purchase. So the order of profitability is: (1) existing high-selling anime (2) original anime you can hype newbies to buy (3) reboot of old series (4) continuation of old, lesser-selling series.

[Jopax]

Oh I know all that, but a girl can dream can't she?

[Reelya]

I'll also mention there are cases where the anime itself totally isn't profitable but it's funded in part by the publishers of the light novel or manga, to increase interest in the property. Hence the sheer number of times they just make 12 of something then forget about it forever.

You can also see this in part in the whole "OVA bundled with Volume X" thing. The OVA isn't about making money by itself, it's so you can have hype about how there's a special edition of the manga that comes with a free DVD, which is then going to ensure a sales spike and that the thing charts.

[Egan_BW]

So cartoon makers are just giving me a gateway drug to comic books? Devious!

[Cruxador]

Oh I know all that, but a girl can dream can't she?

no

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The above quote is edited by me as a comedic paraphrase and doesn't reflect an earlier version of the post which was subsequently edited, nor an attempt by me to cause deception by putting words in someone's mouth, or anything of the sort. Mentioning it because I know people can be touchy on this kind of thing, but no offense was meant and I'm just poking a bit of fun at one possible way to read that interaction without any sentiment of disrespect.

[Cruxador]

I picked up Uzaki-chan wa Asobitai! and it's super cute. I saw it labeled as ecchi but it's more like incidentally ecchi (and less so than some shows without that label) and mostly slice of life, at least so far.

[Reelya]

Yeah I'm going to check that out too.

Coincidentally, today I saw a Youtube video talking about how the Japanese Red Cross used Uzaki-chan in donation posters, and this upset some people (notably sparked by someone who's a career-getting-upset-about-anime person).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzIPhntXEuA

[Cruxador]

Yeah I'm going to check that out too.

Coincidentally, today I saw a Youtube video talking about how the Japanese Red Cross used Uzaki-chan in donation posters, and this upset some people (notably sparked by someone who's a career-getting-upset-about-anime person).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzIPhntXEuA

I mean, twitter controversy isn't necessarily worth taking seriously.

It's an interesting video though. I do think the breasts are drawn a bit "shrink-wrapped" which emphasizes them unnecessarily, but "a picture of breasts is sexually harassing me" is quite a stretch.

[Reelya]

Yeah, I didn't want to give a take on the video because a lot of different views are actually addressed, so it leaves the viewpoint up to discussion.

However the most interesting point for me was where a non-otaku woman who isn't upset at the poster calls out otaku who are upset with the poster, as that being evidence that they're otaku who can't differentiate 2D and 3D, while on the other hand you have other non-otaku women who do take offense at the poster calling out other otaku for defending the poster, who say that it's not a real depiction. So if you differentiate the effects of 2D and 3D then you're a denialist otaku, but if you don't differentiate the effects of 2D and 3D you're a delusional otaku.

There are some mental gymnastics at work here, in other words the otaku can't win no matter which side of the debate they're on. It seems like non-otakus who have an opinion on this either way are just defining anyone who disagrees with them on this matter as being otakus, and they're using whatever post-hoc rationalization they can for that. Which is more interesting from a sociological position than the poster debate itself.

[Cruxador]

Yeah, I didn't want to give a take on the video because a lot of different views are actually addressed, so it leaves the viewpoint up to discussion.

However the most interesting point for me was where a non-otaku woman who isn't upset at the poster calls out otaku who are upset with the poster, as that being evidence that they're otaku who can't differentiate 2D and 3D, while on the other hand you have other non-otaku women who do take offense at the poster calling out other otaku for defending the poster and who say that 2D and 3D aren't the same. So if you differentiate the effects of 2D and 3D then you're a denialist otaku, but if you don't differentiate the effects of 2D and 3D you're a delusional otaku.

There are some mental gymnastics at work here, in other words the otaku can't win no matter which side of the debate they're on.

I think those perspectives are both valid, though. 2D and 3D are obviously different; the sexualization of fake people is not sexualization of real people. On the other hand, media informs and influences culture, so disregarding its effects entirely on this premise alone can be disingenuous.

As far as the idea that it's persecuting otaku, I think this relies on an "otaku vs everyone else" premise, which isn't necessarily accurate. The groups "otaku" and "everyone else" are both non-monolithic and contain many different types of people and opinions. No matter where you are within societies classifications, there will be people who disagree and people who agree, and you generally can't distinguish the two purely by taking an identity descriptor and drawing factional lines based on that.

[Reelya]

I'm not saying the debate itself falls on otaku-non-otaku lines.

My point was that it doesn't, but there are non-otaku on both sides of the debate rationalizing things as the problem being otaku who happen to disagree with them. It's the kind of thing where they come up with the justification after the fact, and it boils down to personal prejudice "oh those otaku!" *rolls eyes*, but it's arbitrary because the people doing it don't even have any consistency in what *they* believe. The women who don't care about the poster are saying the issue is because of silly otaku getting upset, who can't tell 2D from 3D, and the women who do care about the poster are saying it's because of blockheaded otaku who can't understand why a 2D poster is upsetting 3D people. It's amusing because it's contradictory, and it exposes cultural prejudice.