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[Reelya]

But the reader experienced the journey, your point about "in universe" the journey not existing doesn't make sense.

The reader's experience / memories is the product. The character's experience is not the product.

... eventually you're going to die and all your experiences of media won't matter. Are you going to stop consuming media because of that fact? It's a similar argument to your one about JoJo.

I read the webcomic Wigu, which was a real rollercoaster. At the end ... let's just say the writer pulled the ultimate troll similar to what you said about JoJo. does that invalidate Wigu as a good webcomic to read. Nope, it made it better.

[Neonivek]

Nope, it made it better.

Yes, but why did it make it better?

Why is "But it was all a dream?" reviled and yet it works so fantastically in the Wizard of Oz?

Unless there was no real purpose to the wankery in which case I am going to call you out on "It made it better" and call it "artistic wankery" with pretentious "Ohh but you see it calls into question the viewer's blah di blah blah blah".

[Reelya]

It's reviled because it's used so often. But it's used so often because it works.

99.99% of viewers don't care if it was all a dream, as long as cool shit happened in the dream. The vast bulk of viewers care about the experience that they are having, not the outcome for the characters.

Virtually nobody goes "man that was an exciting adventure, but at the end they said it was all a dream / didn't happen in universe. I wish I never watched / read it".

~~~

And the thing about JoJo is that it's split into fairly self-contained story arcs with different protagonists, villains, adventures. So what happens in a different arc is fairly meaningless in the others. If there's a big bad in one of the arcs, you know he's going to get his ass whooped by the specific band of heroes in that arc. It's not like DragonBall or something.

[Neonivek]

The vast bulk of viewers care about the experience not the outcome.

It is the opposite. The bulk of viewers care too much about the outcome and not enough about the overall experience.

The IDEAL is that people care more about the experience rather than the outcome. Not to allow a bad or mediocre ending to ruin the overall mood or experience.

As well you cannot erase the outcome with the experience because ultimately you are heading to a destination. The destination is a reflection of the experiences that got you to that point and it illuminates or distorts that view (often why some great stories have great endings). They are intertwined. A journey without a destination is aimless, a destination without a journey is pointless.

[Criptfeind]

Eh. I think it can be done poorly. And often is. It's not like, a universally good way to end a story. A bad ending doesn't invalidate a story, that's true. But it can often be what's required to make a story good... It can make or break it. And although sometimes in stories the journey is what matters (and I'd say jojo fits under this, the series is nonsense, you're there to watch muscle men homoerotically punch each other to death... So the ending or reboot or whatever doesn't really matter. Especially since each season is sorta self contained and get their own ending, from what I understand.) but sometimes the ending is actually also super important to the story, when the story is a build up to the ending more (which jojo really isn't). Maybe it can still be entertaining enough to be worth going though on it's own (and in fact, it normally has to be if it has any significant length at all and is still good) but sometimes a bad ending can sorta sour the enjoyment of the rest of the story at least somewhat. At least in retrospect.

[Reelya]

@neonivek

Yeah no, read what I said about JoJo. The stories in JoJo are separate enough to be different stories altogether. Would the world exploding the day after the end of JoJo's Stardust Crusaders mean that it's not worth reading Stardust Crusaders? Not in the slightest. Because watching the Big Bad of the series getting his ass totally whooped is entertaining by itself.

You're arguing from ignorance here since you refuse to watch the thing you're critiquing.

[Criptfeind]

I sorta feel like I'd be okay if they replaced the characters for every arc of dragon ball. It'd change the show a bit, but I think it could work.

[Neonivek]

Mind you, What I am stating isn't even nessisarily an ending.

How is a journey where in the middle of it they go "Ohh right, all this journey until now? Didn't happen... All those touching moments? forget them"

You're arguing from ignorance here since you refuse to watch the thing you're critiquing.

No... You just have no idea what we are talking about. As a refresher here is my opening post:

Mind you, you could probably skip most of it due to a development that occurs later that flips the board.

Which I am dead sure is reversed... but someone only told me that as a way to make me never watch Jojo.

So I don't know what this development REALLY is... I don't even know if it is reversed.

Your response WASN'T in defending Jojo itself at first but rather that the IDEA of just entirely retconning the series wasn't a pretense worthy of skipping ahead and IN FACT is a perfectly legitimate and thoughtful tactic.

I also provided an example where a completely unrelated event (so not connected to the story and not influenced by the story) were to eliminate the entire story from the original works. Which you expressed as perfectly valid and good storytelling.

Of which my argument is that it is bad storytelling to counter yours that simply invalidating the story is a good strategy.

As well as arguing that one could skip a story that has been completely invalidated. While you argued that skipping a story just because it is completely invalidated, non-canon, and untrue is ridiculous because the story contained is still entertaining.
-(which some to think of it the answer REALLY should be: To each their own. There are people who skip episodes of a series just because they are boring filler. Then again your argument is skipping at ALL is ridiculous and mine is that you COULD skip it...)

---

THAT was the argument. I cannot argue for Jojo's case because I don't know it and expressed that the situation might be different since I only know this third party and they only told me this to kill my interest in watching the series.

At least that was what I was arguing. As well as how I interpreted what your arguments were.

[Neonivek]

Wizard of Oz is a GREAT example to use.

For one is highlights the dream aspect of Oz, another is that the story is about what Dorothy takes with her. (Not to mention by all means you could suppose it was all real... and she DID earn her way back home anyway.)

The issue with MOST "it was all a dream" stories is that they are... well... fantasies. They were pointless. "It was all a dream" is meant as a cop out a get out of jail free card. It is the exact opposite of what the Wizard of Oz attempted to do with that ending.

I used it as an example to show that while one could say "Wiping out the story that came before" is valid, it should be said that it depends on the point of it and how it reflects on the overall story. Why the Malacior example I made isn't a "Good" version of it.

the transition into color from monochrome implies that something wild and fantastic has happened

They did a LOT more than that. It wouldn't have been even slightly more problematic had the entire movie been in color (not as effective... but still)

[Max™]

You gotta watch it with dark side of the moon anyways.

Also can't even think of what would undo the stuff from prior Jojo stories besides the various abilities that actually undo things.

[Neonivek]

Also can't even think of what would undo the stuff from prior Jojo stories besides the various abilities that actually undo things.

It is weird to do it anyhow given how the series has kind of tried to distance itself SOMEWHAT from previous stories. Not entirely mind you, but the series tries to avoid continuity porn like the plague.

So for it to go out of its way to coax continuity recons is weird.

If I had to guess what ACTUALLY happened... is someone rewrites a single season. Yet as long as they are part of the current season I am fine with that.

[Neonivek]

Your in a conversation with me. Confusion is... expected.

One strategy I SHOULD be doing... is rewriting what people are saying the way I am interpreting it. As well as specifically what I am responding to... AND cut out what I am ignoring.

It would fix a LOT of problems... Not sure it would have fixed this conversation though.

[Criptfeind]

Hey Cript, as a counterpoint to 'a bad ending doesn't invalidate a story,' I'd like to present Mass Effect 3 and the backlash that followed it. As a counter-counterpoint, I'd say Stephen King's a good one to throw out there, since his endings can be real stinkers to the rest of the book's build-up, but the novels are worth it for the experience leading to it.

Yeah. That's more or less exactly my point. I guess I could have worded the brief of my statement better with words like "always" or "necessarily". Would you actually recommend playing mass effect, despite the ending of the third game?

[Reelya]

Horse bikinis - Centaur no Nayami went there.

I didn't even known there was a "there" to go to. Thanks, anime.

[Criptfeind]

I'm kinda curious where the bikini goes... Like... Above? Below? To the front? But on further reflection, not actually curious enough to want to know.