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[Furtuka]

Looked around a bit and I think the show you're talking about might be Zipang?

[Jopax]

Aye, that's the one. Thanks a bunch ^^

[Harpadarpa.]

I've heard it before, but he only gives one side of the story. Sure, he mentions that there are some things that look like they could be an anime in the west, so we might as well call them anime.

But he never considers the flipside. If looking like an anime makes it an anime, and not looking like an anime makes it not an anime, then how do we then classify the full range of Japanese cartoons? Are they all anime, or only some of them? What if Japan's popular styles change: is the stylistic stuff from before the "real anime style" or is the stuff from after the change "real anime style".

And who is the arbiter of "true anime". It's clearly not the Japanese since they don't draw this distinction at all. it's not even a debate in Japan, it's all anime. You could draw everything Southpark style in Japan but with square heads, and they'd just accept it as another example of anime, just an odd one.

So the "arbiters of true anime" must be e.g. Americans. And fuck that. Fuck that with 17 sticks at once, it's the most idiotic concept ever that westerners are the "connoisseurs" who get to decide what is anime and what is not.

In the video, Jeff described WAY more how to identify anime than you give him credit for. He calls anime a "movement" within animation. And to be a part of a movement, you don't have to be from one specific country, you don't have to follow strict guidelines of any sort. You just have to have your work reflect the thoughts, and developments of said movement. And Avatar does show developments of the anime "movement" in its art style, in its storytelling techniques, and in its character designs. Idk about you, but that makes it anime in my book. Its quality as an entry in anime is totally up to you, but it's silly to think of it as anything else.

[Reelya]

Except the vast bulk of anime isn't really anything like Avatar.

The problem is the flipside that he didn't discuss. If you make a set of criteria for anime to which some American shows pass and some fail, then you have to apply those criteria universally, e.g. you have to start excluding things currently thought of as anime, and well as including other things.

Point in case, some people here have questioned whether Doraemon and Crayon Shin-Chan are really anime, because they're not what people think of when they think "anime". Who makes the determination that Avatar is the real shit but Doraemon isn't? It sounds like people just cherry picking what they like as "real anime".

Also point in case, Doraemon was picked up for a US broadcast in the 1980s, but it was subsequently canned for unexplained reasons, so it failed to be part of the US anime explosion. It's probably not a coincidence that of the well-known Japanese kid's anime, it's not considered "canon" by some Americans in the way e.g. Pokemon is. The lack of an English broadcast is probably why some people are stating it as some "fringe" thing which should be dismissed as even being an anime, when it's in fact one of the world's best known animes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doraemon

In March 2008 Japan's Foreign Ministry appointed Doraemon as the nation's first "anime ambassador." Ministry spokesman explained the novel decision as an attempt to help people in other countries understand Japanese anime better and to deepen their interest in Japanese culture."

Yeah, not considered real anime, not at all.

[Harpadarpa.]

Except the vast bulk of anime isn't really anything like Avatar.

The problem is the flipside that he didn't discuss. If you make a set of criteria for anime to which some American shows pass and some fail, then you have to apply those criteria universally, e.g. you have to start excluding things currently thought of as anime, and well as including other things.

Point in case, some people here have questioned whether Doraemon and Crayon Shin-Chan are really anime, because they're not what people think of when they think "anime". Who makes the determination that Avatar is the real shit but Doraemon isn't? It sounds like people just cherry picking what they like as "real anime".

Also point in case, Doraemon was picked up for a US broadcast in the 1980s, but it was subsequently canned for unexplained reasons, so it failed to be part of the US anime explosion. It's probably not a coincidence that of the well-known Japanese kid's anime, it's not considered "canon" by some Americans in the way e.g. Pokemon is. The lack of an English broadcast is probably why some people are stating it as some "fringe" thing which should be dismissed as even being an anime, when it's in fact one of the world's best known animes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doraemon

In March 2008 Japan's Foreign Ministry appointed Doraemon as the nation's first "anime ambassador." Ministry spokesman explained the novel decision as an attempt to help people in other countries understand Japanese anime better and to deepen their interest in Japanese culture."

Yeah, not considered real anime, not at all.

Wait, didn't you just say a few pages back that the Japanese can't be considered the "arbiters" of what is anime and what isn't?

Anyways, I'm not going to argue over shows I know nothing about, like Doraemon, but at least in the case of Pokemon, Pokemon fits in easily the most recognizable genre of anime out there, Shonen Action. You know what other show fits into the Shonen Action genre, with anime stylings, philosophies, and inspirations? Avatar: The Last Airbender.

And, I know I said I wasn't going to argue over shows I don't know, but just a note I made reading that wiki article, it seems like Doraemon has much more in common with the likes of Spongebob Squarepants than it does Pokemon. And we can both agree that Spongebob isn't anime. Not gonna say anymore, because I obviously know next to nothing about the show, but that's just my first impression.

[Neonivek]

it seems like Doraemon has much more in common with the likes of Spongebob Squarepants than it does Pokemon

Well unless you know how anime evolved over time. Yet Pokémon takes a number from another famous anime (that we in the West didn't watch) called Yatterman.

And >_< Yatterman... is probably one of the harder animes to watch because it feels like it is for really young children.

[Cruxador]

it seems like Doraemon has much more in common with the likes of Spongebob Squarepants than it does Pokemon

Well unless you know how anime evolved over time. Yet Pokémon takes a number from another famous anime (that we in the West didn't watch) called Yatterman.

And >_< Yatterman... is probably one of the harder animes to watch because it feels like it is for really young children.

Being aimed at really young children is very much not abnormal, though. I feel like western audiences really underestimate how much of anime is exactly that, in part because we mostly get the stuff for teens and occasionally adult children.

Here's some daytime anime airing this weekend.

[Neonivek]

When I say young children I mean like... 4-6 at best.

Yatterman is... kind of embarrassing

---

Also Japan and your casual and constant homophobia.

Making that comment because goodness have I actually stepped on it a lot in the past, what? 2-3 days?

One even featured them as child molesters and bad cross dressers and this was considered perfectly normal. Another tried to justify shunning O-o because gay people are weird.

Freed you really need to show people how to gay!

[Cruxador]

When I say young children I mean like... 4-6 at best.

Mate did you even click my link? What kind of age group do you think wants something like Ohayou! Kokkekou-san? Like seriously, aside from maybe that first row (from Friday) most of this shit is for that age range, lower, or not very much higher at all.

[Neonivek]

Now that explains why Buddy Fight has a chronic inability to actually show you the stats of the cards...

[Reelya]

Wait, didn't you just say a few pages back that the Japanese can't be considered the "arbiters" of what is anime and what isn't?

That's the opposite of the exact thing i said. I said Americans shouldn't be the abiters. If you're going to pull up things people said recently then you should at least go and read the comment. you don't have to ask me what I wrote, it's in the thread.

My point with the Doraemon thing is that it's a widely popular anime, but it's not so well known in the anglo-speaking world because it got missed for dubbing. Thus that's a likely reason some anglo-speaking fans don't think it's the "real deal" because "what is anime" to them is shaped by whatever airs on Toonami. Basically it's a very narrow cultural filter that means shonen battle / fantasy stuff is considered "typical" anime, when if you look at the majority of anime they're actually contemporary settings and things like teen /school drama and slice of life. Slice of life anime vastly outnumber the Dragonball type shows. Sure, they don't run as long, but there are usually 15 different slice of lifey /school /teen animes airing at any one time, vs the usual 3-4 long running fantasy battle ones.

Here for example is the Bratz cartoon:


 
Looks more like the typical anime that airs in Japan than Avatar does. Give them smaller lips, school uniforms, add a gimmick such as they play in the school band. Instant anime.

[Cruxador]

Here for example is the Bratz cartoon:


 
Looks more like the typical anime that airs in Japan than Avatar does. Give them smaller lips, school uniforms, add a gimmick such as they play in the school band. Instant anime.

That dull matte coloring and drab linework seems unlikely to show up in any anime in this or the last decade. I can't think of any older style that would match either.

[Neonivek]

add a gimmick such as they play in the school band

If I remember their gimmick was that they have their own fashion magazine.

It was the Diva Stars who had their own band.

[Reelya]

Hair colors in K-On aren't much different, and it's K-On I was clearly referencing.



The only real difference there is that they have highlight streaks, to make the visual pop a bit more. However saying that the matte finish looks a little dated doesn't really have much relevance to classification of a series. Original Gundam also lacks the modern glossy finish and nobody is questioning that.

Of course I'm not at all saying anything about the Bratz cartoon here. Just that "cute girls x things" is one of the most common tropes in anime. If we're classing Avatar as part of an anime movement, why not western "cute girls x things" shows that clearly have some anime influence on the art style? (EDIT that would include Totally Spies after reading a bit about it).

[Neonivek]

Yes typically in "Anime as style" Totally Spies, Martin Mystery, and the Amazing Spies are included as anime.