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Author Topic: I like anime, do you like anime?  (Read 3122783 times)

Andres

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27750 on: May 27, 2016, 04:55:30 am »

There's a bunch of garishly-coloured six year olds riding hippogriffs
Save for the "garishly-coloured six year olds" bit, that sounds pretty cool.

(I've never played Monster Hunter.)
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Frumple

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27751 on: May 27, 2016, 07:39:16 am »

Maybe I'm just not noticing things, but the only shots I've noticed are the ones mentioned in my previous post. A certain amount of jiggling and cleavage are just normal though, to the extent that removing it would be 4kids-tier censorship. I mean, anime art doesn't always go for realism, but why criticize it when it does represent things accurately? Warm weather clothing tends to show cleavage, and certain body parts jiggle naturally, especially on heavier folks.
Okay... yeah, you're not noticing things. I've watched the first ep now, and... lemme' break this thing down for you, pointing out the stuff where we're not just talking anime art, but deliberate stylistic choices intended for cheap titillation. It... it's plentiful. Also note as per OW, I'm not saying it's a bad thing (at all, mostly), but... yeah. This is noticeably intentional fanservice, and it's pretty constant.


... episode wasn't all that bad, really. And that breakdown was kinda' fun, too. I could see doing this again.
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Cruxador

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27752 on: May 27, 2016, 04:06:09 pm »

To whosoever watches Luluco:

If you haven't already, watch SEX and VIOLENCE with MACHSPEED before watching the new episode. That's where they're going this time, but if you don't follow Trigger much you probably missed it since it's a ten minute short.

Although the story is pretty much the same in the short as the episode so maybe don't, I dunno.

It means making a big deal of and getting put off by stuff that's totally fucking normal, because it breaks the carefully cultivated puritan illusion that human sexuality is a lie told by the devil. I'm exaggerating, but not by that much.
Haha, what? Not sure where you got that idea. I like fanservice, assuming it's not obnoxious.
I didn't necessarily mean that as an inverse of liking it. Regardless of whether the feeling is negative, it just seems really odd to me for people to place so much emphasis on it.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 04:40:39 pm by Cruxador »
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Frumple

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27753 on: May 27, 2016, 06:48:43 pm »

Eeehhh... it can be offputting for some folks. Come in wanting a story, get T&A jammed in their face, sometimes to the detriment of the content itself.* Considering how prevalent it is in the media in general, and how often quite a lot of other positive qualities are sacrificed for it, it's pretty understandable that folks tend to put some emphasis on it. Most folks ain't terribly worried about the sexuality thing, they're worried the rest of the show's going to be sacrificed on the altar of pantsu, to some degree or another.

*As noted in that breakdown, as an example: That first episode of netoge could have been considerably better if they hadn't been doing the fanservice thing. They lost a number of opportunities (and probably at least a minute or two of total screen time, even!) with those camera angles, because they were shoehorning in T&A instead of focusing on character interactions and whatnot.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 06:55:59 pm by Frumple »
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JoshuaFH

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27754 on: May 27, 2016, 07:06:33 pm »

To whosoever watches Luluco:

If you haven't already, watch SEX and VIOLENCE with MACHSPEED before watching the new episode. That's where they're going this time, but if you don't follow Trigger much you probably missed it since it's a ten minute short.

Although the story is pretty much the same in the short as the episode so maybe don't, I dunno.

I actually didn't know about T&A w/ M... it was interesting...I think that's the right word for it.
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Cruxador

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27755 on: May 27, 2016, 07:54:53 pm »

I actually didn't know about T&A w/ M... it was interesting...I think that's the right word for it.

Yeah, it's for the animator expo, so it's more about being artsy than appealing to a general audience.
As noted in that breakdown, as an example: That first episode of netoge could have been considerably better if they hadn't been doing the fanservice thing. They lost a number of opportunities (and probably at least a minute or two of total screen time, even!) with those camera angles, because they were shoehorning in T&A instead of focusing on character interactions and whatnot.
Well, I revisited the first episode, and actually there are a couple shots like that. It also has a vastly bigger focus on the combat than the rest of the show does. There's like zero other action scenes. I guess they wanted to ramp up the broad appeal before getting into what it's really about? Even so, I don't think there was a whole lot of substance sacrificed for the sake of the camera angles.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 08:00:00 pm by Cruxador »
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Frumple

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27756 on: May 27, 2016, 09:05:57 pm »

And... see, I'd disagree pretty heavily that not much substance was lost. Not all was, by any means, but it definitely lost a good chunk of what it could have had by pandering. It was fairly constant that they were cutting out characters faces (i.e. blocking emotion, not showing where the character is focusing, etc.), blotting out other characters entirely for periods (i.e. forgoing showing the non-verbal expressions for that time), etc., etc., etc. They were regularly (i.e. literally every individual scene in that episode had it happen) sacrificing showing interaction between the characters or even just individual character expression for the sake of locking the camera onto someone's sexual characteristics.

Take the start of the in-person meet, for example, before the other two showed up. Instead of burying you in Ako's tits and latching you onto the rear of her skirt, they could have changed the angle and had both characters in at all times, as well as showing more of the non-verbal communication in one go. A wider angle, one from behind or the side, so on and so forth -- everything the episode did there could have been done, done better, and had more done beside, had the designers not mandated the fanservice. Instead of starting it off both barely showing either character's full non-verbal expression (Ako, of course, had to be introduced sectioned off and in a way that obscured much of the relevant posture) and little to no combined interaction, you could have had full display of all the awkward body posture, a significantly better display of all the facial expressions, and so on, and so forth -- a much better showing from the angle of romance, drama, or anything of that nature. But the T&A meant that didn't happen. Which was really unfortunate, and felt like it really was missing quite a bit. It was less a meetup and more a titillation display.

Just about everything I commented on in that spoiler is another instance of potential like that being lost.

But hey, maybe the second episode isn't as bogged down by that sort of thing. I'll probably end up watching it in the next day or so and do another writeup, for the hell of it. As you say, they may be pandering harder just to make an initial hook. But it is the sort of design an' choreography that leads to comments like the one OW made that started off this whole convesation.
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Reelya

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27757 on: May 27, 2016, 09:23:51 pm »

And back to the main point, the gist is that someone says "btw this show has quite a bit of fanservice", and we get back "stop being prudish", "there's not really that much fanservice", "the boob jiggle is realistic and totally in context", "fanservice by definition is anything additional that 'services' the 'fan', not every sexual element is fanservice".

None of those are sensible or helpful remarks.

1) Just mentioning "btw there's fanservice" is not a criticism or being prudish. It's merely letting people know what a show is like, and usually coming from someone who's actually watching the show. Trying to hand-wave away panty-shots with "I don't even regard that as fanservice because I didn't find it sexy" is not helping anyone. Upskirts, panty shots and cleavage shots are sexual content, regardless of whether they're well-done or not. What if people want to watch a show with their kids or younger sister? Lying to them about sexual content is not being helpful.

2) When people say fanservice in an anime context, we mean anything sexual, clearly. It's a euphemism for: cleavage close-ups, ass-shots, panty-shots, panning shots over girls in sexy outfits, and similar. Of course it doesn't "literally" mean "fan" "service", because that's how euphemisms work.

3) It doesn't matter how "in context" this stuff is, because the writers wrote the thing, and animators drew the thing. They consciously created the context. So there is no such thing as "natural" context. Everything is deliberate fabrication. If a show creator makes an entire show about little girls underpants, it's not "not fanservice" because showing little girl's panties is "in context". People are there because it's a show about that. The fans are there because of the context. Similar with the "real boobs do jiggle" argument. Yeah, some real boobs jiggle. But if every girls has 38DDD or larger boobs, and there are close-ups on the jiggle, then is this "mere realism" any more?

People can be informed and make up their own mind whether they're ok with panty shots or not. And I don't even dislike fanservice. Whenever I recommend a show, but mention it has ecchi or fanservice, you can bet it's a show that I'm actually watching or have completed (I don't discuss shows I'm not watching). I just know it's a show element that people should be aware of before you dump it on them.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 10:08:24 pm by Reelya »
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majikero

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27758 on: May 27, 2016, 10:03:16 pm »

There's a bunch of garishly-coloured six year olds riding hippogriffs
Sounds exactly like online pay in MH4. A bunch of noobs with no idea how to armor skill doing nothing but mount monsters.
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Cruxador

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27759 on: May 27, 2016, 11:23:31 pm »

(Long post)
Yeah, I think you're right actually. Maybe because I hadn't formed my conception of the show yet, I didn't remember how blatant some of that was. Maybe even I just didn't notice it since that's not what I was looking for. I do think that the low angle in the classroom though, despite having an ass pass by, was reasonably artful. I also think that those kinds of full screen tit shots cab be useful for exactly what you're saying they preclude, if they're used to show you where the protagonist is looking. That wasn't what happened in this case really, but there was a similar bit in episode 7 where it was used to show you exactly what the protagonist wasn't noticing, which seems equally legitimate to me.

Quote from: Reelya
(numbers)
That's a fairly stripped-down version of what I said and divorced from context to the extent that I'm not sure it's a fair portrayal. But I'll roll with it.

1. Perhaps I've inferred more of a negative connotation than was meant.
And there's not really much focus on panties or anything, though noe I'm supposing that I may not have noticed since I legitimately didn't realise the amount of focus on cleavage  and breasts. That wasn't a lie, when  I went back to the first episode looking for this stuff, my reaction was along the lines of " oh wait yeah I see what they meant".

2. I know what it means. I was just playing semantics with Orange Wizard regarding how broad it is, and how distinct in meaning it is from ecchi. What's more, I prsesented the definition you're disagreeing with as an argument of absurdity; the fact that we all know it's not that is evidence that the definition must be more restrictive. This, specifically, is something you went and took way out of context.

3. Context always matters. Fan service for the sake of fanserive is one thing. Sexual content that comes up in the story is another. Yes, if you decide that your characters are airplane girls who don't wear pants, the thighs are there because you chose that path. Bit sometimes a story legitimately calls for something sexual. Hell, sometimes it calls for a normally busted woman to engage in physical activity, which means a bit of jiggling, and that isn't the point of the scene. That doesn't mean that contrived situation isn't contrived, but non-contrived situations can exist and I don't think shows or watchers should shy away from something that makes sense in context because you could call it fanservice.
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itisnotlogical

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27760 on: May 27, 2016, 11:41:20 pm »

Oh wow not even close to the right thread.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 11:48:49 pm by itisnotlogical »
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Furtuka

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27761 on: May 28, 2016, 12:00:47 am »

Once I had questions about what was happening in Macross 7, but now I am watching a man playing the electric guitar while singing rock music as he travels through space without a helmet on a ray of light alongside two extra-dimensional vampires. And that is all fine by me.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 12:16:22 am by Furtuka »
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granak1031

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27762 on: May 28, 2016, 01:12:12 pm »

And back to the main point, the gist is that someone says "btw this show has quite a bit of fanservice", and we get back "stop being prudish", "there's not really that much fanservice", "the boob jiggle is realistic and totally in context", "fanservice by definition is anything additional that 'services' the 'fan', not every sexual element is fanservice".

None of those are sensible or helpful remarks.

1) Just mentioning "btw there's fanservice" is not a criticism or being prudish. It's merely letting people know what a show is like, and usually coming from someone who's actually watching the show. Trying to hand-wave away panty-shots with "I don't even regard that as fanservice because I didn't find it sexy" is not helping anyone. Upskirts, panty shots and cleavage shots are sexual content, regardless of whether they're well-done or not. What if people want to watch a show with their kids or younger sister? Lying to them about sexual content is not being helpful.

2) When people say fanservice in an anime context, we mean anything sexual, clearly. It's a euphemism for: cleavage close-ups, ass-shots, panty-shots, panning shots over girls in sexy outfits, and similar. Of course it doesn't "literally" mean "fan" "service", because that's how euphemisms work.

3) It doesn't matter how "in context" this stuff is, because the writers wrote the thing, and animators drew the thing. They consciously created the context. So there is no such thing as "natural" context. Everything is deliberate fabrication. If a show creator makes an entire show about little girls underpants, it's not "not fanservice" because showing little girl's panties is "in context". People are there because it's a show about that. The fans are there because of the context. Similar with the "real boobs do jiggle" argument. Yeah, some real boobs jiggle. But if every girls has 38DDD or larger boobs, and there are close-ups on the jiggle, then is this "mere realism" any more?

People can be informed and make up their own mind whether they're ok with panty shots or not. And I don't even dislike fanservice. Whenever I recommend a show, but mention it has ecchi or fanservice, you can bet it's a show that I'm actually watching or have completed (I don't discuss shows I'm not watching). I just know it's a show element that people should be aware of before you dump it on them.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Quote
That said, I seem to give far fewer fucks about either than much of this thread does. Y'all are positively American about it.
I don't know what this means but offended on principle of being called American
It means making a big deal of and getting put off by stuff that's totally fucking normal, because it breaks the carefully cultivated puritan illusion that human sexuality is a lie told by the devil. I'm exaggerating, but not by that much.

As an American, I can honestly say that yes, this is how much of this damn country acts right now. It's pretty ridiculous, right along with the rest of the "politically correct" BS. But, for further discussion in that direction, I think I'd progress to a different thread.


And related to something completely different that others were discussing: Opinions on a few subbers!

1. Crunchyroll subs are usually about on par with HorribleSubs
2. Commie did well on the anime I've watched from them.


And finally: For my two cents, I really like Netoge so far. Along with Hundred, Kabaneri, Re:Zero, My Hero Academia, Sakamoto, Bungou, and Kiznaiver.
I've really been happy this season. Usually there's not this much to watch.
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Furtuka

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27763 on: May 28, 2016, 01:41:35 pm »

Uh. Crunchyroll Subs are the same as HorribleSubs. Except for when they're Funi or Daisuki. HorribleSubs just rips the subs from the simulcasting sites for distribution.
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Cruxador

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #27764 on: May 28, 2016, 02:57:04 pm »

This is manga, not anime, but interesting news nonetheless: Kodomo no Jikan has a kickstarter for translation and printing up now, more than a third funded. Sort of interesting, but based on the example translations it's going to be pretty low quality, even if you're into that sort of thing, and there's been fan translations for like a decade. So mostly it's interesting because of the political shitstorm that may or may not unfold.
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