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[Leafsnail]

I dunno. The whole "idiot incompetent liberal politicians and media trying to stop le honoroburu miritary from killing people" shows up pretty consistently in milwank. Certainly does from all the major mil-SF authors.

Yeah that kind of stuff is both written and read by the kind of people who think we're tying the military's hands behind their backs by not letting them just blow up everything.  I really liked Legend of the Galactic Heroes partly because it didn't take that stance.

[Reelya]

About the connection I noted "My light novel can't be this incestuous!". Here are the current weekly sales figures for light novels:

http://myanimelist.net/news/45290052

#1 Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei - "Onii-sama!"
#2 Date A Live - step-sister has a bro-con thing going on ...
#3 High School DxD - MC doesn't have a sister, but if he did ...
#4 Imouto sae Ireba Ii ... is literally about a siscon brother
#5 Sword Art Online: "Onii-chaaan!"

And other than that, it's wall-to-wall harems until you get to #11. Overall about 80% of the top 30 Light Novels are harems, with the "sister" stuff conspicuously at the top.

Compare that to the much classier top selling manga, where you find maybe 2-3 harems scattered among the top 50, and that's using a pretty lax definition of harem. e.g. I'm counting Shougeki no Souma as a harem.
http://myanimelist.net/news/45290035

... welcome to the Bizarro World of Japan, where schlubs read novels and people of taste read comics. Go figure.

[Cruxador]

... welcome to the Bizarro World of Japan, where schlubs read novels and people of taste read comics. Go figure.

That's not exactly right. Novels are more mainstream, same as in the west, meaning that the Twilight or 50 Shades of Grey that people are reading are novels, not comics. And unlike the west, those people as often as female, so we see books targeting males primarily, which may also be incidentally enjoyable to a female audience, rather than the almost exclusively female stuff we see in the west.

Manga is less separate from LNs than comics are from books in the west, but they're generally the domain of otaku; people who spend a lot more time than usual in recreational pursuits. So the ultimate floor of popular quality needs to be slightly higher.

Of course there are differences from the west, but there are also similarities.

[itisnotlogical]

I just finished watching Madoka in one big sitting.

I feel like the person who first showed me Madoka is getting revenge for my showing them Evangelion.

[Bauglir]

Now watch the sequel movie, Rebellion. It really ties the themes together.

[BFEL]

Ooh, someone watching PMMM? And they've managed to go unspoiled? I didn’t think it was possible.

IKR?
I mean I just watched it recently and I knew what was up do to HAVING BEEN ON THE INTERNET BEFORE.

Its like one step below "Luke I Am Your Father"
Seriously though, props to you itisnotlogical. Hope you're having fun with that


Also WOOT Highschool DxD at 3rd most popular light novel :3

AND YES REELYA, I looked at Heavens Lost Property. I thought it was kinda meh. Granted I didn't get to the point where any combat stuff happened, so maybe it gets alot better later but it didn't hit anywhere NEAR the same buttons.
Though I'll admit the flock of flying panties thing was HILARIOUS.

[itisnotlogical]

having a blast

[Reelya]

... welcome to the Bizarro World of Japan, where schlubs read novels and people of taste read comics. Go figure.

That's not exactly right. Novels are more mainstream, same as in the west, meaning that the Twilight or 50 Shades of Grey that people are reading are novels, not comics. And unlike the west, those people as often as female, so we see books targeting males primarily, which may also be incidentally enjoyable to a female audience, rather than the almost exclusively female stuff we see in the west.

Manga is less separate from LNs than comics are from books in the west, but they're generally the domain of otaku; people who spend a lot more time than usual in recreational pursuits. So the ultimate floor of popular quality needs to be slightly higher.

Of course there are differences from the west, but there are also similarities.

It's kind of hard to parse what you're saying here:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Novels are more mainstream, same as in the west

Ok, novels are more mainstream in both Japan the west than comics. Check.

unlike the west, those people as often as female, so we see books targeting males primarily

What does this mean? "Those people" being women who read books, or women who read comics? And how does that cause books to target men exactly?

which may also be incidentally enjoyable to a female audience, rather than the almost exclusively female stuff we see in the west.

So, it sounds like you're saying that because those people who read books in Japan are more often female than the west, then they make more books targeted at men, which also interest women, unlike the west where books are more aimed at women directly? It's hard to understand and doesn't seem to make sense either way.

Anyway, whichever way I try and parse this whole post, it doesn't really gel with the general observation. In light novels there's a really strong indication that this stuff is firmly aimed at young men: almost exclusively young male protagonists, mostly battle-oriented highly-sexed harems. You couldn't conjure up a clearer indication that "this is dude stuff" than that. Sure, a few women will still read this, but it's clearly not aimed at them. On the other hand, manga is far more diverse, and has characters and settings aimed at a wide age range, wider interests, and fairly evenly split on gender protagonist, and action vs drama.

But my point was "light novels are for schlubs, manga is more tasteful". And that stands on it's own (just by comparing the top chart sellers in each category). Whether one is more mainstream than the other is not the point. But for "mainstream", total market sales is a good proxy, and manga wins vs light novels on that as well.

[Flying Dice]

... welcome to the Bizarro World of Japan, where schlubs read novels and people of taste read comics. Go figure.

That's not exactly right. Novels are more mainstream, same as in the west, meaning that the Twilight or 50 Shades of Grey that people are reading are novels, not comics. And unlike the west, those people as often as female, so we see books targeting males primarily, which may also be incidentally enjoyable to a female audience, rather than the almost exclusively female stuff we see in the west.

Manga is less separate from LNs than comics are from books in the west, but they're generally the domain of otaku; people who spend a lot more time than usual in recreational pursuits. So the ultimate floor of popular quality needs to be slightly higher.

Of course there are differences from the west, but there are also similarities.

It's kind of hard to parse what you're saying here:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Novels are more mainstream, same as in the west

Ok, novels are more mainstream in the west than comics. Check.

unlike the west, those people as often as female, so we see books targeting males primarily

What does this mean? "Those people" being women who read books, or women who read comics? And how does that cause books to target men exactly?

which may also be incidentally enjoyable to a female audience, rather than the almost exclusively female stuff we see in the west.

So, it sounds like you're saying that because those people who read books in Japan are more often female than the west, then they make more books targeted at men, which also interest women, unlike the west where books are more aimed at women directly? It's hard to understand and doesn't seem to make sense either way.

Anyway, whichever way I try and parse this whole post, it doesn't really gel with the general observation. In light novels there's a really strong indication that this stuff is firmly aimed at young men: exclusively young male protagonists, mostly battle-oriented highly-sexed harems. You couldn't conjure up a clearer indication that "this is dude stuff" than that. Sure, a few women will still read this, but it's clearly not aimed at them. On the other hand, manga is far more diverse, and has characters and settings aimed at a wide age range, wider interests, and fairly evenly split on gender protagonist, and action vs drama.

There's also the issue of distribution. Looking at this weeks sales charts, the top selling mangas have sold about 6 times as many copies as the top selling light novels. From that, I'd argue that manga is clearly more mainstream than, at least light novels.

But my point was "light novels are for schlubs, manga is more tasteful". And that stands on it's own (just by comparing the top seller in each category). Whether one is more mainstream than the other is not the point.

Most of the smutty low-quality novels in the West target female audiences; men tend to get their jollies from graphic media. This also ties into why fanfiction has such a large percentage of female writers and readers: the modern form was literally invented by female ST fans writing amateur smut and romance about their characters of choice. Also other stuff, but mostly the slash.

What Crux is saying is that the demographic trend appears to be inverted in Japan, with males being the primary target of the low-quality written smut.

[Reelya]

Well, he might have left out a few key words there, "unlike the west, those people as often as female" probably was meant to be "unlike the west, those people are male as often as female"

Still, I'm not sure how much female readership there really is for Highschool DxD or Date a Live. I'm sort of skeptical about that part. There are shoujo light novels, sure, but they don't top the sales charts like shoujo manga does on a regular basis. And it's not a case of male-oriented light novels being really mainstream, thus distorting the sales figures. Shoujo manga heavily outsells shoujo light novels.

[Flying Dice]

That... would further reinforce the claim. Y'know, with the text/graphic gender split.

[Cruxador]

What does this mean? "Those people" being women who read books, or women who read comics? And how does that cause books to target men exactly?

Wow, I really flubbed that sentence. I meant readers of novels are as likely to be male as female. Basically, what Flying Dice said.

So, it sounds like you're saying that because those people who read books in Japan are more often female than the west, then they make more books targeted at men, which also interest women, unlike the west where books are more aimed at women directly? It's hard to understand and doesn't seem to make sense either way.

First part is opposite, otherwise yes.

But my point was "light novels are for schlubs, manga is more tasteful". And that stands on it's own (just by comparing the top chart sellers in each category).

My point was that this isn't a bizarro world, it's just that it's male-market schlubbery rather than female-market. Although it might be useful at some point to define a "schlub".

Whether one is more mainstream than the other is not the point. But for "mainstream", total market sales is a good proxy, and manga wins vs light novels on that as well.

What's your source on that? I'm having trouble finding any total numbers.

[Furtuka]

From what I learned in my manga literature class last year plus often hearing stories about businessmen reading manga on trains, can confirm that manga that manga is most likely a lot more mainstream than light novels. Keep in mind this being classifying light novels separately from normal novels. They're called light novels for a reason. Like seriously those things are freakishly tiny. I could barely believe it the first time I saw one in person.

[Reelya]

That... would further reinforce the claim. Y'know, with the text/graphic gender split.

This is starting to get convoluted now. Which claim are you referring to, and how do you think a text/graphic split reinforces it? I really have no idea what you're referring to as "the claim" here.

Normally men are said to prefer visual media and women are said to prefer textual/imaginative media. Arguing for a gender split the opposite way would seem counter-intuitive.

What's your source on that? I'm having trouble finding any total numbers.

It was easy to find. I just googled "top selling light novel/manga 2015" and got ANN's lists
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-11-29/top-selling-light-novels-in-japan-by-series-2015/.95914
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-11-29/top-selling-manga-in-japan-by-series-2015/.95913

We're talking 10 million+ for the chart-topping mangas vs 1 million for the chart-topping LNs in 2015. Just on total volumes shipped, there's about a 10 size difference between the manga market and the light novel market (assuming roughly equal number of publications). But since manga are serialized before they get actual volumes, then the manga market needs to be inflated by the circulation numbers of the manga magazines they appear in. e.g. One Piece is selling around 1.5 million copies per new volume released, but it has a further circulation of 2.5 million copies in Weekly Shonen Jump, for total circulating copies of around 4 million. Putting aside manga magazines, and only looking at publish tankobon, to be completely fair, we need to do per-volume estimates, since some novels might be sporadic, and manga can be weekly vs monthly, and vary in chapter length:

Ao Haru Ride was the top-selling shoujo manga, it's had 13 volumes in 4 years, so 3,638,637 sales in 2015 amounts to about 1.1 million copies per new volume last year. The best-selling LN (is it wrong to to pick up girls in a dungeon) did 1.2 million sales last year, and they've had 9 volumes in 3 years, so three new volumes a year, so per-volume sales were about 1/3rd of the best selling shoujo manga, let alone the best-selling manga in general, One Piece, which has about 9 volumes per year and sold 14 million last year, so ... about 1.5 million copies per new volume (almost 4 times the best-selling LN). But that's before factoring in that One Piece also appears in Weekly Shonen Jump, with circulation of almost 2.5 million, meaning that around 4 million copies of any One Piece volume are actually produced - or about 10 times the best selling LNs of the year.

Meanwhile, the best-selling shoujo-type novels were Kokuhaku Yokou Renshuu and Kagerou Daze, both vocaloid spin-offs with 1 volume last year. So I'm not sure that these could really be called representative "shoujo" series. But still, they sold in the 400K - 500K region, which is 1/2 to a 1/3rd of what the top-selling shoujo manga managed.

[Vector]

-snip-