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[ggamer]

it sucks because normally the only places I can find that kind of story are The Salvation War (NATO vs the armies of Hell) or fanfiction (like the ww2 mass effect one). I'd love to find more stories with that premise

[JoshuaFH]

I watched the first ep of Aah Harimanada, aka THE THRILLING YOKOZUNA ANIME THAT'LL MAKE YOU STRONGER JUST BY WATCHING IT! -it's own tagline

Very much like Rowdy Sumo Wrestler Matsutaro, though this is clearly the older show, so Matsutaro probably drew some inspiration from this. The first episode starts off very strong and manly, and the hokey sumo traditions are kinda charming. Will definitely continue.

[EnigmaticHat]

But I would posit that if you want more milwank you have terrible taste, just like wanting more haremshit or pedo-baiting. It's crap of a different sort, but it's still crap.

Honestly the main reason I like it is because military vs. fantasy world stories can be difficult to find. It's fairly easy to find military works with fantasy aspects mixed in (ala, modern mages type of thing), or stories about a fantasy military, or stories about normal militaries (possibly with some alternate history mixed in), but fantasy vs. military are well... rare. Pretty much the only other fairly interesting stories I've found so far are the earlier books of the Destroyermen book series and The Salvation War series (which sadly had the 3rd book canceled).

I mean yeah, it's got some definitely bad moments, but it's still an interesting series for its premise if nothing else, and for that reason alone I would find it an interesting read, even if it was focused on portraying the historical armies of Nazi Germany crushing and pressing some fantasy world. After all, just because it contains propaganda doesn't necessarily mean that I need to believe it, and can actually work as an interesting spin on a viewpoint for novelty's sake if nothing else.

Stories live on conflict tho.  And conflict relies on uncertainty as to which side will be victorious, even if that uncertainty is a pretense.

"Here is a generic tolkienesque medieval fantasy country versus a modern military" isn't going to produce a conflict with an uncertain outcome.  Because, well, in a medieval context every single modern soldier might as well be an extremely powerful wizard.

[i2amroy]

Stories live on conflict tho.  And conflict relies on uncertainty as to which side will be victorious, even if that uncertainty is a pretense.

"Here is a generic tolkienesque medieval fantasy country versus a modern military" isn't going to produce a conflict with an uncertain outcome.  Because, well, in a medieval context every single modern soldier might as well be an extremely powerful wizard.

You can write a story that's completely about the changes instituted by a curb stomp battle even if the actual winner of the battle is never in doubt. And on top of that, just because the eventual winner is known doesn't necessarily mean that the fates of each individual member is. I might know we're going to annihilate their entire army, but that doesn't mean that my favorite protagonist is going to make it past the mounted knight swinging a sword at him, after all.

It's more like; the conflict tends to come from within ourselves in a good story like this, with politics and lifestyle changes and whatnot, combined with the occasional bit of localized conflict, than on a larger scale. Small bits of larger scale conflict can still be nice (as show up from time to time in the Salvation War series), but as a whole the series can work just fine without it if the focus gets placed on the politics and individual battles well.

And of course, that just assumes we're only looking at one side. Even better are stories where we look at both, so we get to see the changes being made as our world kicks into war mode, the changes in the "undefeatable" fantasy empire as it starts to lose and encounters a new way of life, as well as getting to simultaneously see a slaughter (which has all sorts of interesting moral implications) and a losing massacre against an unbeatable enemy.

[Flying Dice]

But I would posit that if you want more milwank you have terrible taste, just like wanting more haremshit or pedo-baiting. It's crap of a different sort, but it's still crap.

Honestly the main reason I like it is because military vs. fantasy world stories can be difficult to find. It's fairly easy to find military works with fantasy aspects mixed in (ala, modern mages type of thing), or stories about a fantasy military, or stories about normal militaries (possibly with some alternate history mixed in), but fantasy vs. military are well... rare. Pretty much the only other fairly interesting stories I've found so far are the earlier books of the Destroyermen book series and The Salvation War series (which sadly had the 3rd book canceled).

I mean yeah, it's got some definitely bad moments, but it's still an interesting series for its premise if nothing else, and for that reason alone I would find it an interesting read, even if it was focused on portraying the historical armies of Nazi Germany crushing and pressing some fantasy world. After all, just because it contains propaganda doesn't necessarily mean that I need to believe it, and can actually work as an interesting spin on a viewpoint for novelty's sake if nothing else.

Stories live on conflict tho.  And conflict relies on uncertainty as to which side will be victorious, even if that uncertainty is a pretense.

"Here is a generic tolkienesque medieval fantasy country versus a modern military" isn't going to produce a conflict with an uncertain outcome.  Because, well, in a medieval context every single modern soldier might as well be an extremely powerful wizard.

^This.

It can be done well, it just usually isn't. An example of such is that worldbuilding thread, I think it was on reddit somewhere? The premise was that a US Marine brigade's(I think a brigade, anyways?) field base was ISOTed to a field near ancient Rome. That's the only way you can do it effectively: isolate the more modern force from their supporting infrastructure and logistical base. If you need an example of one of the bad ways, look at Weber's Safehold series. Flint's series about that ISOT'd West Virginia town is slightly better but still fairly wanky, but that's to be expected given that he and Weber are both in that same circle of wanky milSF Baen-published authors.

Using an encounter between two groups in which one or both are OCPs for the other isn't impossible to do well, but it tends to be the haven of people who just want a curbstomp to pleasure themselves to.

[IronyOwl]

It's more like; the conflict tends to come from within ourselves in a good story like this, with politics and lifestyle changes and whatnot, combined with the occasional bit of localized conflict, than on a larger scale.

And of course, that just assumes we're only looking at one side. Even better are stories where we look at both, so we get to see the changes being made as our world kicks into war mode, the changes in the "undefeatable" fantasy empire as it starts to lose and encounters a new way of life, as well as getting to simultaneously see a slaughter (which has all sorts of interesting moral implications) and a losing massacre against an unbeatable enemy.

I don't go in for this kind of thing, but wouldn't that make the actual battles mostly besides the point, and therefore not frequent or focused on terribly much? In my (indirect to the genre) experience, a curbstomp battle/unstoppable power is almost always the point, not a setting feature for the actual things to happen around.

I also don't think I've ever even heard of a "we're losing, shit" story that wasn't depressing as hell or the setup for a miraculous turnaround. Or, for that matter, that got terribly far into the moral implications of that kind of thing. Again, I'm not familiar with the genre, but from what I've seen it's usually a depressing WW2 thing or shit aliens wait no we got em lol.

[Frumple]

... being fair to gate, at least re: the manga, the JSDF involved battles kinda' aren't the point. They're curbstomps, over quickly, and with frankly little focus even in regards to their impact on the general socio-political situation. There's some shock and awe, but not much actual screen time/page space. Beyond the fanservice, most of the actual interactions and whatnot are social/cultural/character interactions, at least up to the point I reached. Well, and the wanking, but the wanking doesn't involve particularly much direct use, which is usually over quite quickly (there's a terrible joke there about the reaction of readers that enjoy that sort of thing a bit too much, but I'll abstain).

Wish I could remember the book I've got laying around somewhere that had a tech vs. magic smash together with both sides largely being OCP to each other and fairly well matched. There were portals and lightning cannons and... trains? I think. I vaguely remember it being pretty interesting, but stopped reading part way through because of... something. Been years, book's probably shoved somewhere unfindable.

[Flying Dice]

Part of the reason why I call Gate right-wing wank more than pure milwank is because of that scene when they report to the Diet. You know the scene I'm talking about, the one with perhaps the most painfully obvious strawman political I've seen in any fictional work the past decade. It read like a scene transcribed from a bashfic from one of the worst fandoms on the web, except that the author was bashing a caricature of real-world political figures who object to war crimes and military abuse of civilian populations instead of Albus Dumbledore.

[Putnam]

was that a PL reference

i mean

that's pretty scathing if that was a PL reference

[Frumple]

The earthside political situation in gate's manga adaptation was so throwaway I literally don't remember any of the specifics, much less the scene you're talking about, FD

Barely even remember broadstrokes beyond the normal milwank "And now everyone besides protag faction is some combination of incompetent and caricature," really.

[GreatJustice]

Part of the reason why I call Gate right-wing wank more than pure milwank is because of that scene when they report to the Diet. You know the scene I'm talking about, the one with perhaps the most painfully obvious strawman political I've seen in any fictional work the past decade. It read like a scene transcribed from a bashfic from one of the worst fandoms on the web, except that the author was bashing a caricature of real-world political figures who object to war crimes and military abuse of civilian populations instead of Albus Dumbledore.

That particular scene was so absurd that it wouldn't have been much sillier if the character in question was called a "damn peacenik Pinko Commie" and was shown afterwards to be taking money from a cackling Chinese agent while burning a Japanese flag.

Yeah, it can be pretty bad at parts, quite a bit worse than most (albeit not all) milwank. Even in relatively terrible American stuff, at the very least the Reds are a credible military threat (random "terrorists" generally aren't, but that's a different issue altogether), and American soldiers, when they win, will tend to do so by exploiting some advantage they can reasonably be assumed to possess.

If this was culturally transplanted to America, it would feature enemies of comparable strength to the US (Nazis, Soviets, modern Russians, w/e) being effortlessly crushed on every occasion, with the only "danger" coming from backstabbing Democrats. Meanwhile, a single US Marine sent to Ancient Rome would be capable of beating twenty trained Legionaries alone with his bare hands because being an American soldier gives you supernatural combat ability (this applies to the Americans back home fighting Russians/Germans/Chinese by the way). Also, periodically you would get to see the perspectives of enemies talking about how badass the Americans are and how they wish they were as tough as the Americans.

Mind, the premise is still good, and the manga at least seems to imply that really interesting stuff might happen later, but that will probably occur, at best, several seasons later. Oh well.

In other news,

Heavy Object isn't that bad. The fanservice is pretty over the top, but the premise is solid and the setting isn't too bad (albeit there is some silliness, like the "Legitimate Kingdom" making me think it was established by Nigerian Princes to scam people, only for people to take it so seriously that they actually gave them political power), plus there are some neat little twists and points made that I think most shows wouldn't bother with. It does strike me as being pretty silly that no one in this world ever considered that, instead of throwing expensive military hardware at an indestructible war machine, they could just send commandos to destroy it while it's sitting around in a base being repaired, or that they could attack the supply lines needed to keep it running.

Owarimonogatari is quite good thus far. If it keeps it up, I'd put it pretty high on the list of Nisio Isin anime adaptations.

[Neonivek]

It does strike me as being pretty silly that no one in this world ever considered that, instead of throwing expensive military hardware at an indestructible war machine, they could just send commandos to destroy it while it's sitting around in a base being repaired, or that they could attack the supply lines needed to keep it running.

But then our main character wouldn't be special.

Yeah the series REALLY doesn't 'think' very hard.

As for "To keep it running" it has unlimited energy. It is part of its BS science. At least I think so judging by the first episode.

[majikero]

Heavy Object is... I wouldn't say good exactly. Probably above mediocre. The whole stereotype division with silly names. Super lolis everywhere. Super competent protag but at least one of them is an actual soldier.

Also they actually DO commando raids, sabotage, supply disruption but the nature of the super weapons makes it almost suicide since they are never defenseless. Unless your a harem protag.

[Flying Dice]

was that a PL reference

i mean

that's pretty scathing if that was a PL reference

That scene was bad enough to deserve it. And I say that as someone who read through the entirety of CED in an effort to see how deep the cesspit went.

Part of the reason why I call Gate right-wing wank more than pure milwank is because of that scene when they report to the Diet. You know the scene I'm talking about, the one with perhaps the most painfully obvious strawman political I've seen in any fictional work the past decade. It read like a scene transcribed from a bashfic from one of the worst fandoms on the web, except that the author was bashing a caricature of real-world political figures who object to war crimes and military abuse of civilian populations instead of Albus Dumbledore.

That particular scene was so absurd that it wouldn't have been much sillier if the character in question was called a "damn peacenik Pinko Commie" and was shown afterwards to be taking money from a cackling Chinese agent while burning a Japanese flag.

Yeah, it can be pretty bad at parts, quite a bit worse than most (albeit not all) milwank. Even in relatively terrible American stuff, at the very least the Reds are a credible military threat (random "terrorists" generally aren't, but that's a different issue altogether), and American soldiers, when they win, will tend to do so by exploiting some advantage they can reasonably be assumed to possess.

If this was culturally transplanted to America, it would feature enemies of comparable strength to the US (Nazis, Soviets, modern Russians, w/e) being effortlessly crushed on every occasion, with the only "danger" coming from backstabbing Democrats. Meanwhile, a single US Marine sent to Ancient Rome would be capable of beating twenty trained Legionaries alone with his bare hands because being an American soldier gives you supernatural combat ability (this applies to the Americans back home fighting Russians/Germans/Chinese by the way). Also, periodically you would get to see the perspectives of enemies talking about how badass the Americans are and how they wish they were as tough as the Americans.

Mind, the premise is still good, and the manga at least seems to imply that really interesting stuff might happen later, but that will probably occur, at best, several seasons later. Oh well.

Oh, don't get me wrong, the U.S. is still king of milwank. It's just, y'know, the Japanese doing it is pretty funny, given the circumstances. You can't help but wonder if the only organized opposition they face are random medieval bandits and a crumbling empire run by incompetent backstabbers because even the author didn't think it was plausible for that JSDF expeditionary force to take on a credible threat.

[Culise]

... being fair to gate, at least re: the manga, the JSDF involved battles kinda' aren't the point. They're curbstomps, over quickly, and with frankly little focus even in regards to their impact on the general socio-political situation. There's some shock and awe, but not much actual screen time/page space. Beyond the fanservice, most of the actual interactions and whatnot are social/cultural/character interactions, at least up to the point I reached. Well, and the wanking, but the wanking doesn't involve particularly much direct use, which is usually over quite quickly (there's a terrible joke there about the reaction of readers that enjoy that sort of thing a bit too much, but I'll abstain).

Wish I could remember the book I've got laying around somewhere that had a tech vs. magic smash together with both sides largely being OCP to each other and fairly well matched. There were portals and lightning cannons and... trains? I think. I vaguely remember it being pretty interesting, but stopped reading part way through because of... something. Been years, book's probably shoved somewhere unfindable.

Hell's Gate.  I was going to bring it up since I mentioned the author originally in the context of other milwanks, but I didn't because the tech side has a bit of "magic" of its own (psionics, specifically, one of the biggest Golden Age sci-fi pieces of magic outside of FTL itself).  I think it's one of my preferred Weber works, inasmuch as I still read his works; I'm mostly reading Honor Harrington now because of sunk costs, and his Safehold series...I am not that fond of Safehold at all, to be honest, but that would just be a complete derail if I pursued that line of thought further.