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[Frumple]

I was being sorta facetious there. The real answer, I suspect, is partially that, and partially down to how a lot of the ecchi series double as the shitty faceless SI protagonist series. It's probably as much about imagining themselves in that situation as anything else, for much the same reason as why shitty SI adventure series are so popular.

... to be honest, I'm pretty sure it's not that. Mostly because I've frankly never actually seen people react to series that way, despite folks saying it's some kind of weirdly common thing. Seems to be more something people that don't enjoy the works and can't particularly comprehend the appeal say to denigrate the people enjoying it, really. Shitty SI adventure series tend to be common because people enjoy writing them more than reading them, just as one particular counterpoint, in my experience, and silent/low impact protagonists in general allow the writers to focus on other characters.

If you're looking for actual differences, there's a fair number of them. Ecchi series actually end up multivolume fairly often, whereas similarly structured porn (i.e. drawn or animated hentai) does only very, very, very rarely. Even larger porn works (OVA series, the tanks and whatnot) often don't even go the entire bit of a single volume/episode (especially with drawn stuff) focusing on the same story/world. Even if it's shallow, there's almost always significantly more character and plot investment with the non-straight up porn stuff, and that actually does draw people (see comparative live action with its 1001 interchangeable daytime dramas that also include plenty of endless teasing and softcore porn). There's the occasional bit of exception in the world of porn (which often makes for some of the best porn, at that), but it's not even remotely common.

Due to the fact that it's not straight up porn, the general structure and writing flow are also generally pretty different -- you have more humor, more slice of life, more etc. The supporting bits of lascivious works get more screen time they don't get in porn because in porn 50+% of the work is dedicated to people actually fucking. Even if 50%+ of a lewd non-porn work is dedicated to fanservice, it still is almost always significantly less metaphorical real estate consuming than screwing. The focus is pulled back a bit, which allows other things to get in the picture, often stuff people also enjoy. Sure, it's still often what amounts to softcore porn, but there's plenty of reasons that people with cheerful access to vast swaths of explicit stuff still consume the less explicit stuff.

'Nother big part of it is that most of the particularly popular ecchi series are... actually not that bad. They're not "terrible". Usually not the most amazing thing to grace the earth, no, but people that are fond of these works do actually have something of a degree of ability to discern quality. The works tend to be pretty shallow, but a lot of time that's not actually a necessarily bad thing. Sometimes people just want something fairly straightforward and/or focused -- see basically every action movie ever, ferex. But with the series actually mentioned... I spoke on musume a bit back, and as I noted I'd call it pretty damn competently done. DxD actually has fairly interesting worldbuilding and occasionally pretty neat bits of writing/character interaction/etc. -- there's a reason it's been generating a surprising amount of damn solid fanfiction, and it's not just the busty exhibitionist redhead and assorted other half to un-clothed characters.

Other things have other draws -- I'd fight the person that said Sora no Otoshimono was shit, ferex, because it's up there on my list of goddamn amazing manga despite (because, to an extent) having large tracts of its land dedicated to large tracts of land. Shinmai Maou no Keiyakusha, one of the recent-ish ones that is particularly egregious on the lewd front, I'd still call pretty enjoyable mostly for the art (and not even the explicitly fanservice part of it -- the succubus makes some amazing faces) and character design, even if much of the rest of it is kinda' wonky. Nana to Kaoru is the fluffiest borderline-explicit BDSM fiction I think I've ever seen. People around here seem to enjoy GATE, and that's fanservicey as goddamn, and often in ways twice as squicky as stuff like freaking prisma illya, which at least doesn't go out of its way to marry its loli-baiting to bloody mass murder. There's just a list that keeps on going. You have to be pretty much explicitly blinding yourself to denigrate the fact that a fair amount of these "terrible ecchi" (i.e. fanservice heavy) series actually have a pretty damn large bit of merit behind them -- oftentimes in fairly specific areas, but still.

I could probably keep going, but really, what it breaks down to, as ree intimated, is that people can actually enjoy differently focused stuff for different reasons, and that enjoyment can actually be pretty legitimate. They don't usually have one or two specific interests that consume the vast amount of their decision making process, and can appreciate different facets of a work to different degrees.

... also, totally ended up writing more than I expected to, there. Oh well.

[Reelya]

But the sheer loops you have to go through not to be PKed are kind of extreme. The main character has TONS of scrolls he carries around just for that purpose.

Actually, I think the idea is that he has years worth of the accumulated junk you get playing RPGs, plus the fact that all 40 of his other guild members gave him all their accumulated junk too, so he has 41 elite players worth of crap in his inventory. That was an actual major plot point if you recall. You always end up with a ton of scrolls, potions and the like and never end up using them in most of those games. It's pretty clear, since every time he uses a magic item, the series points out that it's something he thinks is junk, that he got in some dumb way. This varies; it's usually - he got it from daily random bonus items, or from some stupid sounding quest, or he thinks "meh, it's just a cash shop item" in a dismissive tone, when everyone else is impressed. And they referenced "defense from PKs" as a reason for having an item, exactly zero times.

The plot point is "wow, I finally found a use for <shitty item X>" not "I carry <shitty item X> with me at all times to avoid PKs".

[i2amroy]

-snip-

+1 here, especially on the "haven't ever met anyone who does the substitute for me" thing. I've definitely met people who did that for straight up pron, (there's a reason why "POV" videos can be popular), but I've never met anyone who does it with the tamer stuff.

[Neonivek]

But the sheer loops you have to go through not to be PKed are kind of extreme. The main character has TONS of scrolls he carries around just for that purpose.

Actually, I think the idea is that he has years worth of the accumulated junk you get playing RPGs, plus the fact that all 40 of his other guild members gave him all their accumulated junk too, so he has 41 elite players worth of crap in his inventory. That was an actual major plot point if you recall. You always end up with a ton of scrolls, potions and the like and never end up using them in most of those games. It's pretty clear, since every time he uses a magic item, the series points out that it's something he thinks is junk, that he got in some dumb way. This varies; it's usually - he got it from daily random bonus items, or from some stupid sounding quest, or he thinks "meh, it's just a cash shop item" in a dismissive tone, when everyone else is impressed. And they referenced "defense from PKs" as a reason for having an item, exactly zero times.

The plot point is "wow, I finally found a use for <shitty item X>" not "I carry <shitty item X> with me at all times to avoid PKs".

Well not cash shop item. If it is something he had to actually buy from the cash shop he will mention.

But he is referring to the prize machine cash shop items usually (in that you pay real money... and you get a random item)

[Reelya]

Oh right that would make sense, the randomness is designed to milk you for more money, since you want the chance to win the good item, but you usually end up getting (i.e. buying) an item you didn't want. But you don't feel completely cheated out of that money since you got something out of it, so people are more willing to spend again for another chance. And those are the main items he's using up throughout the series.

CCGs do the same thing. Random booster decks are basically a way to sell you a lot of cards you don't want for the chance to maybe get 1-2 cards you want. So they sell a lot more cards than anyone would buy normally this way.

[Neonivek]

Don't get me wrong, there is a great understanding of what is appealing about the game... But goodness does it do every single thing that peeves me off about "Freemium" games.

Heck the description says that what made it unique was the amount of freedom you had in the game. Since you could outright program NPCs to do whatever you wanted, create elaborate buildings, create super ultimate items and all that.

Though the scrolls weren't exactly trash. He specifically states that the scrolls he had came from a guide on how to Player Kill and goes on to describe that what he is doing is somewhat typical in that game. (though he was a top player)... Though the scrolls were likely, at his point, probably trash scrolls that he could have thousands of.

[Hawkfrost]

At least for manga it's definitely true. The more ecchi the better it sells in America. Highschool DxD and Monster Musume new volumes both usually hit the top 5 in the nytimes manga bestsellers. But they don't even blip on the charts in Japan.

Going off Amazon best-sellers, it's not so clear to see, since there are several pages of old Ghibli movies and tons of One Piece/Naruto/Fairy Tail DVDs and old 1990s stuff that everyone knows.

But even then you have some interesting stuff. Both released seasons boxsets of Highschool DxD have outsold any single Neon Genesis Evangelion-related thing. Yup, more Americans want "magical boobie highschool" in their DVD collection than want the new Evangelion movies.

I didn't mean it as current market trends, I was saying if they wanted to make a break into more than just a rather small subset of the rest of the world it's not going to fly by just selling soft-softcore porn, likely.
Most people over 20 either don't want to admit they like anime, and thus are unlikely to purchase anything related to it, or they stay far clear of the entire thing and want nothing to do with it.
And when those people do admit to liking anime, are they raving about how amazing Rosario+Vampire (or whatever) is? Usually I find they talk about stuff like Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, Ghost in the Shell, Attack on Titan, Death Note, Hellsing, Baccano!, ect.

None of which are about ecchi (though they may have varying degrees of fanservice, but never as a focus), magical girls or monster girls.
To earn respect in the west as a medium you need to present a certain level of maturity.
When did comic books start becoming accepted? After Batman Begins and The Dark Knight brought a more serious face forward on comic book heroes.

[i2amroy]

On the other hand I could argue that the widespread mainstream success of something like 50 Shades of Grey goes to show that you don't necessarily have to be "mature" in that particular sense.

Honestly I'd chalk the fact that most people over low 30's now (I have several friends in the upper 20's/low 30's who love anime, and the age limit on that is creeping up as we all age) don't admit to watching anime because they grew up in a time when the animation age ghetto was a fair bit stronger. On the other hand those ~age 33 or younger often grew up watching Dragonball Z or similar (which was originally aired in a Children's slot on US tv, remember) are often much more accepting about openly admitting that they still like to watch anime.

Course this is aimed mainly at the US market, things are quite a bit different over in the European ones.

[ggamer]

Hey, does anybody remember that show about hideaki anno as a young adult and all I can remember is the one scene where he's watching Cyborg 009 with a girl and having an internal monologue about the intro or something

UGGGH THIS IS KILLING MEEEE

[Furtuka]

I've seen that gif/webm. It's amazing. I should make a note to watch that show sometime.

The show would be Aoi Honō or Blue Blazes. Though it's actually about the author's time as a student while attending the same school as Hideaki Anno, Hiroyuki Yamaga, and Takami Akai. Apparently it started out as a manga.

[Frumple]

When did comic books start becoming accepted? After Batman Begins and The Dark Knight brought a more serious face forward on comic book heroes.

... since when did comic books actually get accepted to any substantial degree? Hell, last I paid something approaching attention to it, most layfolk (so to speak) just lump them and manga together under the same umbrella of stuff...

[Hawkfrost]

When did comic books start becoming accepted? After Batman Begins and The Dark Knight brought a more serious face forward on comic book heroes.

... since when did comic books actually get accepted to any substantial degree? Hell, last I paid something approaching attention to it, most layfolk (so to speak) just lump them and manga together under the same umbrella of stuff...

Well, maybe they are just accepted here; You see people walking around with Batman/Superman/Whateverman T-shirts, backpacks, notebooks, ect all the time.
Liking superheroes and reading the comics for them isn't really a big deal, I see people reading them on their phones/iPads while on the bus.

[Frumple]

... if you're a kid, maybe? Beyond that it catches some flak, in my experience, and it's not really accepted outside some pretty limited demographics and situations. You may see people wearing superman shirts of whathaveyou, but it's pretty likely it's been years since they've read any of the comics or watched any of the other media, if they ever did to begin with. It may indeed be regional, though. Manga and comic book perusal and paraphernalia in public is roughly even in the area I'm in (which is to say, pretty rare and sometimes mocked), maybe a little bit less so since the advent of easier-to-conceal tablets and phones and whatnot.

Similarly, in non-dedicated book stores (Barnes & Nobles, etc.) the manga and comic book sections are usually about the same size (and in the same place, sometimes on the same shelves, with no meaningful attempt to distinguish the two and often bridging works -- stuff that could fit in either category -- included) from what I've seen.

Oddly enough, I've actually heard manga et al talked about (both inside and outside of private venues) more than comic books in my lifetime, even if more people definitely recognize more characters and whatnot from the latter, and usually with a fair amount more credit given to the former. The comic scene in the US seems to actually be regarded as more one-dimensional and less mature than the manga one, even given how lewd a lot of the stuff that gets translated is, and at least equally associated with the proverbial man-child and/or puerile interests. S'gotten better live actions in recent history by a long shot, but that's about its only point in favor from what I've noticed on the streets beyond base exposure. Accepted in a general sense isn't really the word I'd use for it.

[Furtuka]

While I agree the prevalence of fanservice and moe and ecchi is an issue that is starting to reach its boiling point. There's something that has to be brought up in regards to some of the phrasing in this conversation that sorta goes along with what Frumple is saying in there's also bit of a larger issue at play in regards to getting things accepted as well that's pretty much an issue with all nerdy media. It being in that western mainstream adult audiences have a biased tendency to reject fanciful concepts regardless of writing quality unless X amount of grimdark/tacticool/self depreciating deconstructionism has been applied to it, which can damage the soul/feel/theming of the original work.

[Orange Wizard]

Here, at least, I get the impression that most people don't know a great deal about comics/manga/anime and as a result don't really care about it. It's not notably uncommon to see people with related paraphernalia or chatting about them, and everyone else seems to regard it with a vague sense of "that's kinda weird but whatever".

The whole "needs more grimdark antihero zombies" thing is a thing with the western mainstream as a whole and not really related to any specific media.