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[Ghills]

Did you read the posts I quoted? They literally say "Yet all Japanese cartoons are anime by definition regardless of style." and "country of origin is what defines anime for me."  That is undeniably linking an art style to race.

No, it's not linking an art style to race. It's saying that "anime" is something that has nothing to do with style. You're the only one who thinks we're arguing that.

Japanese cartoons are 99% anime because they are 99% the same visually.

:O + O_O

That is literally my face right now.

Seriously... I am not sure if serious... >_< this is an insane thing to say. Can someone PLEASE bring out the anime styles chart?

I found two.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If someone in Japan drew a Marvel-style superhero comic, would you count that as anime?  I don't think most anime fans would.  Certainly, I have never talked with one outside of this thread who would.

Those charts prove my point - the visual differences are minor compared to the differences in comic styles in US/EU comics.   Seriously, compare DareDevil to Order of the Stick, check out recap comics, take a look at Finder vs Bones - much, much wider range of visual styles than we find in anime. There's nothing wrong with having a coherent look. It does make the argument that place of origin is what matters a little hard to swallow

[EnigmaticHat]

Please don't straw-man.

The whole "country of origin" thing is saying it's not about style. So the only one linking style to race is yourself. Hence your entire post is a strawman argument. Since nobody is making the argument you attack, you can have all the fun in the world both inventing and debunking your own points.

Did you read the posts I quoted? They literally say "Yet all Japanese cartoons are anime by definition regardless of style." and "country of origin is what defines anime for me."  That is undeniably linking an art style to race.

There's no strawman here. There's people saying "Race is a defining characteristic of this art" and me pointing out that that's shortsighted, counter to one of the fundamental points of art, and also kind of racist.

This. We're saying that "anime" doesn't a style, but rather that it simply describes animation that comes from Japan.

That is highly, highly debatable.  Often when people talk about anime they mean the look, the types of plot and stereotypes, etc.  If someone from Japan put out a Marvel style superhero comic, would you call that anime?

...I've always been under the impression that anime literally means "animation from Japan".  Like sure, its weird that we have a word for that in particular, but I don't see anything inherently racist about that.  It kind of makes sense really, Japanese animation is divergent enough from western animation to warrant its own word.  Like how Hollywood and Bollywood are different enough art styles it makes sense to have words for them.

[Neonivek]

Not to mention EnigmaticHat that there is a culture behind Anime.

Even when something western is trying to be anime... you can immediately tell the differences because of the plots, characters, and themes being used.

Avatar the Last Airbender never comments that Kitara's breasts are too small.

[Ghills]

re: anime style charts, i like these, personally

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

also agreeing that "anime" is referring to country of origin, not just "style" (which is hella vague)

i'm also not sure i'd agree that US comics have multiple visual styles, because it's always looked like the same beefy dudes with squinty eyes and chiseled jaws to me

but maybe i need to read more comics, and maybe you need to watch more anime

I've watched a lot of anime, and also checked out those style guides. They're mostly very similar - http://i.imgur.com/akxbUhb.jpg is the only chart that shows noticeable visual differences.

Yeah, once you get outside of the bigbox comics there's a lot of visual style differences. Check out Bones, Lumberjanes, Order of the Stick, just off the top of my head.  Like I said upthread, maybe the visual cohesion of anime is just that what gets exported looks similar and there's more variety in Asian countries.

[Reelya]

  If someone from Japan put out a Marvel style superhero comic, would you call that anime?

The Japanese would refer to it as an anime. Are you going to sit there and tell Japanese people that this specific thing they call an anime isn't a "real" anime? Because they eyes aren't pointy enough or some other arbitrary thing?

And actually sit there claiming it's because you're against racism?

[Neonivek]

The thing is that ANIME is actually an evolved word from "Japanimation" which literally means "Japanese Animation"

Besides this whole debate is moot because this thread is about Japanese Animation, from Japan... MAYBE Asia and including manga.

[Ghills]

Please don't straw-man.

The whole "country of origin" thing is saying it's not about style. So the only one linking style to race is yourself. Hence your entire post is a strawman argument. Since nobody is making the argument you attack, you can have all the fun in the world both inventing and debunking your own points.

Did you read the posts I quoted? They literally say "Yet all Japanese cartoons are anime by definition regardless of style." and "country of origin is what defines anime for me."  That is undeniably linking an art style to race.

There's no strawman here. There's people saying "Race is a defining characteristic of this art" and me pointing out that that's shortsighted, counter to one of the fundamental points of art, and also kind of racist.

This. We're saying that "anime" doesn't a style, but rather that it simply describes animation that comes from Japan.

That is highly, highly debatable.  Often when people talk about anime they mean the look, the types of plot and stereotypes, etc.  If someone from Japan put out a Marvel style superhero comic, would you call that anime?

...I've always been under the impression that anime literally means "animation from Japan".  Like sure, its weird that we have a word for that in particular, but I don't see anything inherently racist about that.  It kind of makes sense really, Japanese animation is divergent enough from western animation to warrant its own word.  Like how Hollywood and Bollywood are different enough art styles it makes sense to have words for them.

The word originally came about because the art style of Japanese animation was so distinct from US/EU comics - it was a shorthand for the visual and storytelling differences.  You even mention this yourself with 'Japanese animation is divergent enough'.  The divergence is the visual style and tropes, and that's what people are talking about when they talk about anime.

No one tries to say that people outside of India can't make Bollywood style movies (and people in various Eurasian and Middle Eastern countries have been making Bollywood style movies for years).  People are saying that no one outside Japan can make anime (and one person also said that no one in Japan can make something that's not anime).  That tying of race and product is the difference.

[IronyOwl]

I feel like this argument is suffering heavily from arrogance, but it's hurting my head too much for me to form a coherent and useful opinion on it.

I'm fairly certain it keeps cycling around the same statements as last time, however.

[Andres]

Not to mention EnigmaticHat that there is a culture behind Anime.

Even when something western is trying to be anime... you can immediately tell the differences because of the plots, characters, and themes being used.

Avatar the Last Airbender never comments that Kitara's breasts are too small.

I am suddenly tremendously grateful the show never veered into that crap. Just thinking about it gives me bad feelings.

[Ghills]

  If someone from Japan put out a Marvel style superhero comic, would you call that anime?

The Japanese would refer to it as an anime. Are you going to sit there and tell Japanese people that this specific thing they call an anime isn't a "real" anime? Because they eyes aren't pointy enough or some other arbitrary thing?

And actually sit there claiming it's because you're against racism?

Japanese people would probably just call it a comic. Or maybe a Western-style comic. Calling it 'anime' is something that arose in the US and EU because the art was so different from US/EU products.   It's a term mostly used outside of Japan.

[Neonivek]

i don't think it's that weird we have a single word for japanese animation, additionally

i mean we use manhwa and manhua specifically for korean and chinese comics, respectively

Honestly the whole Anime debate only exists because western animation is starting to noticeably adopt facets of anime animation as far as the public eye is concerned (we have actually been doing it since Astroboy)

So it isn't fallacious to attempt to extent the definition to include them.

Yet people who watch a lot of anime know that there is more to anime then the animation, excluding that anime has a WIDE variety of animation, such as the storytelling. So extending that definition just makes talking about anime that much harder because, well, even anime-esk cartoons aren't the same as anime.

BESIDES it would be like saying:

Panty And Stocking is a Western Cartoon (because it imitates Power Puff Girl's animation style)

[Ghills]

Not to mention EnigmaticHat that there is a culture behind Anime.

Even when something western is trying to be anime... you can immediately tell the differences because of the plots, characters, and themes being used.

Avatar the Last Airbender never comments that Kitara's breasts are too small.

I am suddenly tremendously grateful the show never veered into that crap. Just thinking about it gives me bad feelings.

Definitely.  Especially because most of the characters are <15.  Hm. Where's the feeling-sick emoticon? will have to do.

[Reelya]

There is no Japanese word for "comic" other than "manga". Why would they call it "comic" which isn't even a Japanese word in the first place? The place that Japanese sell mangas is called "comiket" btw, showing that when they do use "comic" it's seen as a synonym for manga.

They also have only one word for cartoons, "anime". So it makes no sense to say Japanese would refer to something Western style made in their country as "non anime". They don't even have a word to express the concept.

Take a look at the character designs in the anime movie Redline. Lots of them look like Marvel superhero designs.

[Neonivek]

15? WOW that is WAAAAAAAY too old.

Their ages would first be reduced to 12 THEN they would talk about Kitara's breasts.

Ohh and when Toph joins the group... Kitara and Toph would have an argument over whose breasts is more attractive to Aang... And Azula would probably have huge boobs and flaunt it infront of them.

Did I mention that sometimes Anime really bugs me? because this would 100% happen if AtLAB was made in Japan.

[Putnam]

Not to mention EnigmaticHat that there is a culture behind Anime.

Even when something western is trying to be anime... you can immediately tell the differences because of the plots, characters, and themes being used.

Avatar the Last Airbender never comments that Kitara's breasts are too small.

I am suddenly tremendously grateful the show never veered into that crap. Just thinking about it gives me bad feelings.

Definitely.  Especially because most of the characters are <15.  Hm. Where's the feeling-sick emoticon? will have to do.

 

anyway

anyone want to bet that someone who isn't goku, mr. satan or (MAYBE) vegeta is going to save the day in dragon ball super at some point