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[Neonivek]

The fanservice in anime isn't all that much if you start taking a close look at Western live-action movies / TV. Plenty of boob and butt shots thrown in there but it just seems to be more evident when it's animated, since it draw attention to itself that someone sat down and drew this rather than a director told them to point the camera a certain way, which is less in-you-face, but no less deliberate.

People who watch TV are really overly sensitive about sex. The SHEER number of times I heard "Well she is in a cat suit, CLEARLY she is fanservice"... when it is a thick suit that reveals nothing.

I doubt TV really has as much supreme fanservice as you think it does. Unless you are in the above category and anytime you can see that a woman has breasts or an ass is fanservice "Ohh my, she is holding a gun! Fanservice! Women don't hold guns!".

I mean there is Agent K from the replacements who fulfills the "Fanservice" category by being gorgeous... But in many ways that is just the sort of thing I try to avoid qualifying as fanservice as it is basically saying that being attractive is fanservice.

The reason why Anime does WAY more fanservice is obvious... Because anime often forgets where a woman's eyes are.

Hmm... I got way too emotional over this. I guess it is because I am aware of the sexism that is in western media, but the only kind people mention just really amounts to "Quick! Get the Parkas!" and not... for example... the fact that older women have a harder time getting roles or are often kicked off of shows altogether.

[Frumple]

In live action stuff, it's really more about camera angles than anything, at least before things get overt (though plenty gets plenty overt). Pay attention to where the focus goes, heh. Posture and stuff goes in to it, too. To the edit, it's nae particularly about attractiveness or skin exposure. That's just the most blatant angle.

Really, it's not so much that folks that watch live action stuff are overly sensitive about sex, it's that the medium is freaking inundated with it to the point most folks are pretty heavily desensitized, and get confused when other folks point out stuff they've been unconsciously filtering.

[Neonivek]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well Frumple it is because frankly...

People don't really care about sex as much as people think.

I watched an entire "Wonder bra" episode of Student bodies where Mags wore a wonderbra that increased her breast size... and I didn't even notice until I tried to.

When you see a behind shot where it moves up so you can see the entire woman's frame... are you thinking "Action pose" where she is being badass? Or are you thinking "Woot that ass!"

When you look at Superman do you go "Ooooh, what a hot bod!"

In many ways it has nothing to do with desensitization because... in the real world you can see women in sexy outfits if you just go to a pool or the beach.

Context is basically king here. Things are rarely sexy unless you make it.

Western shows when they are trying to be sexy generally either hide it or explore it simply through 'She is attractive get over it... Now watch her be amazing". While anime explores it through "Look! when she fights her boobs dance!" and "Look at DAT ASS!"

Anime... isn't subtle is what I am saying. You can watch the most disgusting horrific things in anime and you still know if it is fanservice or not.

While western shows with some VERY notable exceptions (and I am not saying they don't exist) generally speaking aren't sexy because there is no context for the sex... thus there is nothing sexy about it... nor is the focus put on it.

And asking someone "Look this is sexual" is basically forcing them to see something as sexual. Which people have done for episodes of Barney.

I'll shorten what I said to a sentence

Sometimes an ass is just an ass... But while western media is usually subtle, anime is almost always overt. Most cases of "western fanservice" is usually only such if you are predisposed to seeing it that way.

At least I never seen a anime that was nothing but subtle fanservice, but I guess it could exist.

[Reelya]

I'd say things like Two and Half Men are the equivalent of ecchi harem anime in Japan. You can't really claim Two and Half Men is lacking in overt fanservice, sex humor, or isn't extremely popular. It's not the only show like that either. So if you wanted to "westernize" harem anime, you'd basically have two MCs and have an "Odd Couple" relationship, then surround these two guys with the hot girls, instead of having just one MC. Make one guy the jock, the other the nerd and you're set. Instant "western" ecchi anime. The formula from the movie/show The Odd Couple is one of the most widely used set-ups.

For shows which mix action and fanservice there are quite a few too. CSI Miami was pretty notorious for the amount of murders that happen at bikini parties, and the close-up panning shots up female detective's butts, so it's pretty much on the level of Ghost in the Shell.

[Neonivek]

I'd say things like Two and Half Men are the equivalent of ecchi harem anime in Japan. You can't really claim Two and Half Men is lacking in overt fanservice, sex humor, or isn't extremely popular. It's not the only show like that either.

I am not saying it isn't.

But I'll put it this way... Marchen Awakens Romance is a show for children... and features a scene where a woman is groped by fleshy veiny tentacles after her clothes are ripped off... and is about a young boy's magical adventure through a fairytale land

Two and a Half-men is a show for adults... and is about some horrible human being's sexcapades with a horny child as he teaches his brother about sex... With a wacky housemaid.

And yet... Marchen Awakens Romance a show not even about fanservice... Has more overt fanservice then two and a half-men.

And no... Mars isn't an exception. Ghost in a Shell has more fanservice then two and a halfmen. Pokémon has more fanservice then two and a halfmen (surprisingly... Lets say a LOT was censored).

In fact... Two and halfmen doesn't really have as much fanservice as you might think.

[Hawkfrost]

Violence, yes, but almost all of it is nonlethal kung fu or ambiguous army action. How much blood was there in the show? How many unambiguous deaths? I hardly think you'd say Hellsing is almost as easy to recommend, but oh darn has that one lesbian vampire scene in there.

I think the things that make Hellsing (Or more specifically, Hellsing Ultimate) harder to recommend would be the necrophilia, baby murder, cannibalism and absolutely cringey "comedy" scenes, personally.

I'm not seeing anything in his post to support this, though. Some people really, really don't like certain things.

I was mostly voicing it because, at that moment, I could not think of a single series that benefits from it.
Clearly Kill la Kill slipped my mind because, yes, that's a series that benefits from it. Not because it's titillating or attractive, but because it turns it into an actual plot point with meaning and a purpose, elevating it above cheap pandering.

The problem is that not many series do that; they shovel it in even when it doesn't fit or make sense just to fill some sort of quota that apparently animation studios and manga artists seem to be under.

War, yes, but again, ambiguous and clean; lots of implied KOs and mostly army vs heroes combat. I hardly think you'd say Saving Private Ryan is far easier to recommend, because while they both have war SPR doesn't even have any women and therefore has even less fanservice than Avatar.

Abusive relationships haha oh god yes, but almost all in the past and centered on the designated tragic backstory character. I hardly think... oh fine, I'll throw Neo a bone. I hardly think you'd argue Familiar of Zero would be just as easy to recommend as Avatar if not for all that fanservice.

Politics, yes... but again, none of it especially unpleasant. I hardly think you'd argue that... what, The Godfather, I guess? I'm having a hard time thinking of what you'd have difficulty recommending because "politics," but I'm sure Avatar's are remarkably nonobjectionable by comparison.

Betrayal... I guess? But again, usually of the HAHA NOW YOU'RE IN MY PRISON WHERE YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS WILL NOT ESCAPE LATER IN THE EPISODE type (if not the "I'm supposed to be on the bad side but just this once I'll abuse my position to help you guys escape" kind). I hardly think you'd argue that Running Man would be just as recommendable if it wasn't for the dancers and leotards.

I would say the difference is that these topics are generally not there to pander to an audience in a cheap manner, instead they are part of the theming or plot and serve to drive the story forward (or to give a story in the first place). Not always, but generally.


Violence is, however, often used in a very cheap and sometimes disgusting manner to put asses in the seats, as it were.
Personally I find shows like Elfen Lied, Mirai Nikki, Gantz, and their ilk to be rather grotesque in a very adolescent and immature manner that completely puts me off, and in a far worse way than any fanservice.

[Neonivek]

Ultimately as long as the fanservice isn't distracting I can handle it.

And I always try to at least give a character design a chance before I label it fanservice (Meroko comes to mind, an anime bunny who wears underwear)

[EnigmaticHat]

Elfen Lied put me off so much with its first episode that I never watched any more.  It took "interplay of sex and violence", which I already dislike, to a ridiculous degree; the first "fight" where you have a completely naked woman, except for a mask covering her face, bloodily murdering a bunch of people, basically explained everything that was wrong with itself.  And then I got to the end and realized I had no idea who anyone was, I didn't know anyone's name or what they do, and I didn't give a shit about anyone.  Like if the ending of the episode had been a nuke landing and then cutting to the actual protagonists of the show, I wouldn't have minded a tiny bit.  There was nothing to it except immature shock value (that or a fetish is the only explanation I can think of for the "amnesiac girl peeing herself" scene).

My standard for acceptable fan service is whether it sexiness exists in universe.  If you want to show me naked people during an actual sex scene, that's one thing.  Or a making out or something similar.  If you just show me a naked person in a shower when no one else is in the room, well that's stupid and gratuitous.  Same principle with camerawork.  Is someone in this scene finding a character attractive?  OK, show it to me from their general perspective, that creates a connection between the character's appearance and what's going on in the story.  Don't just stick the camera behind their ass because management gave you a buttcheek quota.

[Frumple]

... well, the "just" part... can be. Usually is. But I've actually seen a few well done solo bath scenes in manga, that were neither particularly stupid or gratuitous. It's (potentially, anyway) a venue for intimacy, privacy, and/or relaxation that basically no other scenario can match, and can do a pretty good job showing aspects of a character's personality you just don't/can't see elsewhere. It's usually at least gratuitous, but that's not a necessary thing (and can pull double duty besides) and it's a tool that can have pretty legitimate use in a writer's proverbial palette.

Honestly, it's hard for me to think of any fanservice signals that are a unilateral sign of going too far. S'almost always someone out there that have done whatever it is you can think of either tastefully or effectively (from a writing/direction standpoint). There's plenty that are usually a sign of shitty writing, but... well, Sturgeon's. Crap is crap by dint of it being crap, by and large, not by dint of its component parts being of some sort of absolute encrapifying nature.

[Andres]

I'm really getting sick of Fairy Tail villains always being competent threats for no reason. After beating the two most powerful dark guilds in Fiore they're now getting their asses handed to them by some speedy speedster, a slime person, and a controller, despite experience in beating two of those three types of wizards. Moreover, Gildarts (the guy who scared Natsu into surrendering just by powering up) is actually being challenged.

[UXLZ]

Am I the only one who finds Visual Novels with sequels weird?

[Sirus]

Depends on the novel, I guess. Like most forms of entertainment.

[Frumple]

It's possible you're the only one, UX. Do you also find written trilogies and series unusual? Movie sequels?

[Haspen]

Started Heroic Legend of Arslan. Now at episode 15 and it's quite good so far.

[i2amroy]

Note on the fanservice thing, but we actually did a board-wide poll at one point. Assuming I'm remembering correctly, it was very significantly in favor of the "fanservice is okay/can be good as long as it doesn't detract from the story" category (like >70% voted that). So while there were certainly people who felt that every bit of fanservice always detracts from the story (and you're entitled to feel that way, it's an opinion), you might want to keep in mind that you are definitely in the minority here.

It's possible you're the only one, UX. Do you also find written trilogies and series unusual? Movie sequels?

This right here. That said I do think it works much better on Kinetic Novel type of VN's where you don't really have any serious choices. Sequels for the more varied choose-your-own-adventure type of VN's still work, but they often force there to be a "True" ending, and as such can sow a bit of division if the fanbase liked another ending more.