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[Neonivek]

The reason why IN GENERAL there aren't good Ecchi though is rather simple.

1) The people who are looking for Ecchi are typically looking for nothing but the Ecchi aspect
-There is an exception... but that is neither here nor there.
2) Ecchi scares away the general audience

Anyone who makes an Ecchi manga with a genuine intent to write a story, say... a romance... using the more scandalous scenes only to highlight their relationship... Is generally writing to a percent of a percent of a percent of an audience. It is why when Ecchi has a story it is typically nothing but ultra-derivative emotion manipulation.

Ecchi writers usually have to disguise it... like in Ghost in a Shell (Ok ok.. I am just taking a dig at ghost in a shell )

It is why Yuri/Yaoi (one of those) is somewhat the exception because it is marketed towards women and thus there needs to be a story because women, in general, desire a more emotional connection... But even those follow a very VERY typical path that never deviates from their intended market but they still have the freedom to explore their own concepts and ideas.

[Leafsnail]

A minute or so in, the eleven-year-old female lead is introduced via panty shot. I'm not quite sure how I'm supposed to react.

Stopping the video and never watching it again

[Flying Dice]

Yeah, I'd say that (as we saw in that poll someone did a while back), fanservice isn't necessarily bad, and can add a bit of spice to a story. On the other hand shows that are built around fanservice as a selling point (and are usually the ones marked "ecchi" from what I've seen, the others often aren't necessarily marked as that) are really something you should probably only be watching if that's what you are looking for.

Which isn't to say that they can't be mainstream popular, look at what happened with 50 shades of grey after all.

I make an exception for High School of the Dead...just because it's so good. It just could have been so much better without the "boing" sound effects

Well, yes, but that's because if you removed the incessant fanservice HOTD would still be one of the best anime takes on the zombie apocalypse. Even as it stands it's still good, in a Grindhouse-y sort of way.

[Hawkfrost]

Yeah, I'd say that (as we saw in that poll someone did a while back), fanservice isn't necessarily bad, and can add a bit of spice to a story. On the other hand shows that are built around fanservice as a selling point (and are usually the ones marked "ecchi" from what I've seen, the others often aren't necessarily marked as that) are really something you should probably only be watching if that's what you are looking for.

Which isn't to say that they can't be mainstream popular, look at what happened with 50 shades of grey after all.

I honestly still feel the opposite, fanservice directly detracts from my experience with any series. A show that has 0% fanservice is a show I don't have to feel awkward recommending to (or watching with) other people, and something that doesn't waste time on needless pandering when it could be advancing the plot or developing characters. It cheapens the work, suggesting that either the writer is a pervert (which is possible), or that the writer didn't have confidence in their writing skills or the story itself.

No fanservice is a perk I can stick on the box as a positive trait, and something I can congratulate.

[JoshuaFH]

I mean, sure Hawk, if it's a show that just has random panty shots or 'whoops saw you naked' scenes, then it kinda distracts from whatever story it was trying to tell in the first place. To be clear though, alot of very good works have sexual themes that can't be removed without altering what the show is even about. My favorite example is Godannar,  a giant robot show where literally every single character is meant to appeal to some kind of fetish, but it's celebrating sexuality it as opposed to just exploiting it.

[IronyOwl]

you have this rich world with interesting races

Go on? I would not have expected that.

I honestly still feel the opposite, fanservice directly detracts from my experience with any series. A show that has 0% fanservice is a show I don't have to feel awkward recommending to (or watching with) other people, and something that doesn't waste time on needless pandering when it could be advancing the plot or developing characters. It cheapens the work, suggesting that either the writer is a pervert (which is possible), or that the writer didn't have confidence in their writing skills or the story itself.

No fanservice is a perk I can stick on the box as a positive trait, and something I can congratulate.

You could argue the same for any trait or feature, though, which makes me feel like this is relatively specific to your tastes.

[Ghills]

I honestly still feel the opposite, fanservice directly detracts from my experience with any series. A show that has 0% fanservice is a show I don't have to feel awkward recommending to (or watching with) other people, and something that doesn't waste time on needless pandering when it could be advancing the plot or developing characters. It cheapens the work, suggesting that either the writer is a pervert (which is possible), or that the writer didn't have confidence in their writing skills or the story itself.

No fanservice is a perk I can stick on the box as a positive trait, and something I can congratulate.

You could argue the same for any trait or feature, though, which makes me feel like this is relatively specific to your tastes.

Not really.  There's a broad consensus across humanity that some things are private, and arousal is one of those things.  Where everyone falls on the this-is-ok-in-public line varies widely too.  Fanservice designed to titillate turns a work into something that must be talked about and recommended more carefully.  Compare Avatar: The Last Airbender vs Ranma 1/2.  You can tell a wider range of people that Avatar is a fine show, even if you don't necessarily like it yourself.  Ranma 1/2 requires a certain level of maturity and a specific sense of humor.

[Neonivek]

Ironyowl all you have to do to understand exactly where Hawkfrost is coming from is watch any single episode of Ghost in a Shell where the fanservice is made as specifically distracting as possible.

As I have said before "Why are you focusing on her ass? is her ass important somehow? This isn't Metal Gear Solid!"

[Ghills]

I mean, sure Hawk, if it's a show that just has random panty shots or 'whoops saw you naked' scenes, then it kinda distracts from whatever story it was trying to tell in the first place. To be clear though, alot of very good works have sexual themes that can't be removed without altering what the show is even about. My favorite example is Godannar,  a giant robot show where literally every single character is meant to appeal to some kind of fetish, but it's celebrating sexuality it as opposed to just exploiting it.

On one hand, basically reasonable. On the other, this line of reasoning is often used as an excuse to shoehorn in fanservice.  Lots of artists insist that dealing with sexual themes means showing sexual things (ex: panty shots or characters constantly wearing fetish gear).  It's used as a crutch for lazy storytelling, much like racial stereotypes are.

Dealing with sexual themes doesn't mean showing sexual behavior, but it gets used as an excuse to because artists aren't immune from the human tendency to shove what they like into their work.

[IronyOwl]

Not really.  There's a broad consensus across humanity that some things are private, and arousal is one of those things.  Where everyone falls on the this-is-ok-in-public line varies widely too.  Fanservice designed to titillate turns a work into something that must be talked about and recommended more carefully.  Compare Avatar: The Last Airbender vs Ranma 1/2.  You can tell a wider range of people that Avatar is a fine show, even if you don't necessarily like it yourself.  Ranma 1/2 requires a certain level of maturity and a specific sense of humor.

Hence "relatively." It's a more common local concern than violence or foreigners, but it's still a subjective issue, not a universally disruptive trait. You might notice fanservice is far from the only reason Avatar is easy to recommend and Ranma 1/2 is hard.

Ironyowl all you have to do to understand exactly where Hawkfrost is coming from is watch any single episode of Ghost in a Shell where the fanservice is made as specifically distracting as possible.

As I have said before "Why are you focusing on her ass? is her ass important somehow? This isn't Metal Gear Solid!"

But his point isn't that fanservice can detract from a work's focus and accessibility, it's that it does so as a rule. You'd want an example of it being done really well but still suffering for it to show where he's coming from, not an example of it being done really poorly and therefore failing.

[Ghills]

Not really.  There's a broad consensus across humanity that some things are private, and arousal is one of those things.  Where everyone falls on the this-is-ok-in-public line varies widely too.  Fanservice designed to titillate turns a work into something that must be talked about and recommended more carefully.  Compare Avatar: The Last Airbender vs Ranma 1/2.  You can tell a wider range of people that Avatar is a fine show, even if you don't necessarily like it yourself.  Ranma 1/2 requires a certain level of maturity and a specific sense of humor.

Hence "relatively." It's a more common local concern than violence or foreigners, but it's still a subjective issue, not a universally disruptive trait. You might notice fanservice is far from the only reason Avatar is easy to recommend and Ranma 1/2 is hard.

Ironyowl all you have to do to understand exactly where Hawkfrost is coming from is watch any single episode of Ghost in a Shell where the fanservice is made as specifically distracting as possible.

As I have said before "Why are you focusing on her ass? is her ass important somehow? This isn't Metal Gear Solid!"

But his point isn't that fanservice can detract from a work's focus and accessibility, it's that it does so as a rule. You'd want an example of it being done really well but still suffering for it to show where he's coming from, not an example of it being done really poorly and therefore failing.

Avatar's basically an anime show with the fanservice removed.  It's got violence, war, abusive relationships, politics, betrayal, falling in love - basically everything any other show has. It just also has no panty shots.  There's a few bath scenes I think, but it's always done completely cleanly.  That's really the only difference I'm seeing. 

I think Ghost in the Shell works well as an example - the fanservice distracts and detracts from the other parts of the show.

[Frumple]

That's... still not what IO's asking for. GitS's fanservice was honestly a bit clumsy, iirc, and generally caused a sort of thematic dissonance. You'd want a series that actually has well done fanservice that still manages to detract from the series. Start with, say, Kill la Kill, Panty & Stocking, or that one ecchi manga series that's basically fluffy sub/dom stuff with light bondage elements, wuzzit... Nana to Kaoru, that's the name (which is actually pretty cute, imo, though definitely NSFW*). Stuff like that. And then ask whether the fanservice actually detracts from what the series is trying to do.

... personally, those three mentioned are ones I'd actually say are bettered by the fanservice and sexual themes, rather than lessened. Have noted previously that it takes stuff that's pretty excessive and/or clumsy to really irritate me, though.

*E: At least it was the last time I read through it, which was a while back. Looks like there's a lot more, so I can't speak entirely for the later stuff, heh.

[Neonivek]

Still the "An anime dvd could have 'no fanservice' on the back as a feature" is more of a hyperbole or an expression of how he feels... then an honest expression of how he thinks the world should work.

Of COURSE no fanservice isn't a feature, of course fanservice can be done well. It is more him voicing extreme displeasure at the overly abundant and overly distracting fanservice that basically plagues anime.

As well he further supporting his opinion by stating that fanservice makes anything he enjoys embarrassing to show. Because saying you like Ramna 1/2 is basically saying you like upskirt under-age panty shots to anyone who isn't deep in anime. Which is frankly a fair statement... I like Jane and the Dragon, a childrens show for 7 year olds, but I'd never watch it with anyone in real life. Nor would I watch Kill-la-kill with my mother.

Your not meant to take it quite as seriously as you all are taking it

[IronyOwl]

Avatar's basically an anime show with the fanservice removed.  It's got violence, war, abusive relationships, politics, betrayal, falling in love - basically everything any other show has. It just also has no panty shots.  There's a few bath scenes I think, but it's always done completely cleanly.  That's really the only difference I'm seeing.

Violence, yes, but almost all of it is nonlethal kung fu or ambiguous army action. How much blood was there in the show? How many unambiguous deaths? I hardly think you'd say Hellsing is almost as easy to recommend, but oh darn has that one lesbian vampire scene in there.

War, yes, but again, ambiguous and clean; lots of implied KOs and mostly army vs heroes combat. I hardly think you'd say Saving Private Ryan is far easier to recommend, because while they both have war SPR doesn't even have any women and therefore has even less fanservice than Avatar.

Abusive relationships haha oh god yes, but almost all in the past and centered on the designated tragic backstory character. I hardly think... oh fine, I'll throw Neo a bone. I hardly think you'd argue Familiar of Zero would be just as easy to recommend as Avatar if not for all that fanservice.

Politics, yes... but again, none of it especially unpleasant. I hardly think you'd argue that... what, The Godfather, I guess? I'm having a hard time thinking of what you'd have difficulty recommending because "politics," but I'm sure Avatar's are remarkably nonobjectionable by comparison.

Betrayal... I guess? But again, usually of the HAHA NOW YOU'RE IN MY PRISON WHERE YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS WILL NOT ESCAPE LATER IN THE EPISODE type (if not the "I'm supposed to be on the bad side but just this once I'll abuse my position to help you guys escape" kind). I hardly think you'd argue that Running Man would be just as recommendable if it wasn't for the dancers and leotards.

Falling in love, yes, but as a clean character growth thing on the side, and not "clean" just through lack of fanservice. I hardly think you'd argue a romantic comedy movie or Chobits with all the fanservice censored out would either be just as easy to recommend as Avatar.


You know what else has all of these things and more similarities besides? Game of Thrones. Would you say that if it wasn't for all those damned hookers everywhere, GoT would be every bit as recommendable as Avatar: The Last Airbender? I suspect you would not, for rather obvious reasons.

Still the "An anime dvd could have 'no fanservice' on the back as a feature" is more of a hyperbole or an expression of how he feels... then an honest expression of how he thinks the world should work.

Of COURSE no fanservice isn't a feature, of course fanservice can be done well. It is more him voicing extreme displeasure at the overly abundant and overly distracting fanservice that basically plagues anime.

Your not meant to take it quite as seriously as you all are taking it

I'm not seeing anything in his post to support this, though. Some people really, really don't like certain things.

[Reelya]

The fanservice in anime isn't all that much if you start taking a close look at Western live-action movies / TV. Plenty of boob and butt shots thrown in there but it just seems to be more evident when it's animated, since it draw attention to itself that someone sat down and drew this rather than a director told them to point the camera a certain way, which is less in-you-face, but no less deliberate.

There's probably a similar amount of fanservice-laden stuff, but it's more towards live-action in the USA. Think classics like Baywatch, or the movie versions of Charlies Angels or Dukes of Hazard. The same type of crowd who watch stuff like that are probably the crowd in Japan who keep ecchi anime profitable. Blaming "otaku" for the existence of ecchi anime is basically saying "damn nerds, without them there wouldn't be any porn", which is frankly a really silly thing to believe. For example, the hentai Urotsukidoji was the biggest-selling anime in Britain by a factor of about 100, and it wasn't anime geeks buying it, you can bet (it sold more than the estimated number of anime fans in the entire country by a large factor).