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[Furtuka]

Neither. He's grey.

[Neonivek]

Neither. He's grey.

So Anti-hero.

[Frumple]

What I understand of things lelouche isn't a hero at all, anti or otherwise. He's also not really a villain. He's a dude with a goal that relatively virtue neutral, going about achieving it through whatever means are available.

[Neonivek]

What I understand of things lelouche isn't a hero at all, anti or otherwise. He's also not really a villain. He's a dude with a goal that relatively virtue neutral, going about achieving it through whatever means are available.

So... Anti-hero... by definition.

I am not quite sure what definition of anti-hero people are using.

You don't have to be heroic in order to be an anti-hero... Heck you don't have to be a hero.

If he hovers above being a villain protagonist "I do whatever needs to be done to achieve my goals" then it puts him in the darker shade of anti-hero.

Neutral implies something else entirely... Mostly that he doesn't achieve his goals or doesn't do anything. Anti-hero is all the shades of white to black (Just that a "Goody Goody" anti-hero is a bit different)

[Reelya]

Yup, the concept of the antihero doesn't have to be a villain at all, it's just defined as someone who is not a traditional hero. And according to the traditional usage (centuries worth) hero in this context is shorthand for protagonist. So, an anti-hero is a protagonist who lacks the traditional tropes of the protagonist (i.e. they're not "heroic").

So, the anti-hero is extremely common in modern literature, especially manga and comics , any sort of "don't look at me I'm a monster" thing, or major character flaw such as uncontrollable rage or bloodthirsty vengeance makes a character an anti-hero. Naturally, anyone who does dubious acts for any noble goal fits the trope like a glove. Light Yagami and Lelouch are no-brainers, they do terrible things to further their aims and they're both protagonists: so anti-heros by definition.

[Culise]

Neutral implies something else entirely... Mostly that he doesn't achieve his goals or doesn't do anything. Anti-hero is all the shades of white to black (Just that a "Goody Goody" anti-hero is a bit different)

"Virtue-neutral" (it should really be hyphenated for clarity) means neutral with respect to virtue; that is, his goal is (to Frumple) not especially virtuous or lacking in virtue as far as any sort of "intrinsic morality" of the act is concerned.  It's also occasionally used, in a different context, by D&D aficionados (specifically of that silly Good-Evil/Lawful-Chaos alignment axis), to refer to intermediate shades of grey, so even in isolation, I'm not certain that it can always be said to imply that he doesn't achieve his goals or do anything. 

I think.  I've never seen Code Geass; I was spoiled at the ending and sufficiently irritated at the foolishness to consider never watching it.

[Reelya]

(EDITED) Lelouch is basically like Light Yagami with different powers. Extremely so. So take Death Note, change the powers, and add mecha battles + alternate the grimdark with fun schoolgirl scenes and a ton of fanservice for no reason + lots of Pizza Hut eating scenes (they got sponsored by the company, so one main character is constantly chowing down on pizza deliveries and there's one who episode per season about baking the world's biggest pizza). Also whereas Death Note explains the genius-level thinking Code Geass is just like "I'm a genius, here's something I prepared earlier " ..."but how exactly" ... "don't question genius, just accept the plot twist"

I've just summed up all of Code Geass

[Neonivek]

Well there is another type of Anti-hero Reelya then the "Villainous hero" or "Monster Hero" Anti-hero (please forgive my made up terms)

There is also the "wishy washy" protagonist type of Anti-hero. These are MUCH rarer and pretty much exclusive to novels (for good reason). They are often supposed to be people in situations that call for a hero but it being something they cannot possibly provide. The reader is meant to be consistently disappointed in the protagonist yet cogniscent of their humanity.

Lelouch is basically like Light Yagami with different powers. Extremely so. So take Death Note, change the powers, and add mecha battles + alternate the grimdark with fun schoolgirl scenes + lots of Pizza Hut eating scenes (they got sponsored by the company, so one main character is constantly chowing down on pizza deliveries and there's one who episode per season about baking the world's biggest pizza).

Yeah and Light Yagami is outright a villain protagonist. He is the Crusader Villain who in trying to rid the world of darkness he looms over it blocking out all the light.

But the difference here is situation. Light is killing people just for committing crimes even if they are already in jail... HECK just for being accused of commiting crimes... As well as anyone who looks for him.

While Lelouche is killing people mostly with the end goal of freeing Japan.

[Leafsnail]

Light Yagami is presented as a horrible person and is a genuine villain protagonist, while Lelouche is deeply flawed but ultimately sympathetic and the hero.

[Frumple]

... generally -- as in, every single work I've seen them in -- anti-heroes still have some kind of virtuous goal they're after, they just don't particularly give a damn about the means, or are jackasses about it. If their goal is decidedly non-virtuous, they're villains. If it's neither, they're just the bloody protagonist. Lelouch is something I'd put in the that third category.

Using anti-hero as a synonym for non-hero protagonist is just... weird. The critters in question are still on the metaphorical side of the light. Sometimes more their light than anything else, but still on it. Lelouch, at least from what I can recall of Geass, just... isn't. If I were going to label the guy with a hero label, it'd be byronic, not anti.

And... didn't lelouche not really give a shit about japan?

[Reelya]

Well, we can have subjective opinions about what anti-hero means, or we can use the traditional definition:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihero

It might be weird, but that's how it's been defined for over 300 years, and I think it's better to use established definitions than to all have our personal definitions for words, for the simple reason that having personal definitions for words makes communication impossible.

And actually, it's not that weird. In logic "not X" means "everything that isn't X", not "the exact opposite of X". And by that usage, antihero would be all protagonists that are not heroic.

Hero, as you can see in the relevant literature, is shorthand for protagonist. A villainous hero is no the villain by definition, though they may be "a villain" in common parlance. The villain of a piece is by definition the antagonist.

[Tellemurius]

Examples for the table, The Punisher and Deadpool are anti-heroes.

[Neonivek]

Deadpool kind of switches... In fact HE would be someone I'd accept as "Neither hero, nor villain, nor antihero" because of how often he just goes between all the roles. Well at least in an "overall look", since what role someone plays in a story can be different.

While Punisher is a Anti-hero and while he has played a villain, it made sense in those stories.

But basically there are many kinds of anti-hero.

It is just important not to get tripped up on any one definition.

It would be like defining Hero as anyone who is like Superman.

[Arcvasti]

Lelouch is basically like Light Yagami with different powers. Extremely so. So take Death Note, change the powers, and add mecha battles + alternate the grimdark with fun schoolgirl scenes + lots of Pizza Hut eating scenes (they got sponsored by the company, so one main character is constantly chowing down on pizza deliveries and there's one who episode per season about baking the world's biggest pizza).

Yeah and Light Yagami is outright a villain protagonist. He is the Crusader Villain who in trying to rid the world of darkness he looms over it blocking out all the light.

But the difference here is situation. Light is killing people just for committing crimes even if they are already in jail... HECK just for being accused of commiting crimes... As well as anyone who looks for him.

While Lelouche is killing people mostly with the end goal of freeing Japan.

Point of clarification. Its brought up at some point that Light/Kira is pretty selective about his criminal victims. IIRC, one of the clues that the Death Note changed hands during the corporate arc thing that Kira started killing people whose guilt was more suspect instead of only going for people who were unambiguously criminal. Not that he's not a villain protagonist for other reasons mostly related to being a power-mad jerkass, that is.

[Reelya]

Well, it was more that the pattern of victims changed that tipped them that the perp had changed. Light definitely didn't have problems killing innocents as needed in his plan. And Light only really had the TV's say-so about guilt too. He killed plenty of people who were not convicted of anything.