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[Flying Dice]

There was a harem romance in NGE? And here I was thinking that that was all the perverse fanon desire to ship anyone with anyone, even if it's a clone of their mother. No disagreement on the Abrahamic symbolism -- though if you're going to do something other than invent a mythos from whole cloth, it's not the worst thing to draw on -- though I don't really buy labeling the characters' issues as being unilaterally Freudian complexes, given that that's incredibly vague and not particularly helpful; you can link damned near anything like that if you try hard enough. And the last two episodes are pointless drivel. No, really? Watch End if you cared enough to finish the series.

I'm honestly not sure how much of the hate for NGE comes from the perspective of "this show doesn't have a likeable protagonist or a happy ending, it's shit" -- the same sort that complain about films where the only death occurs off-camera and is entirely bloodless, and the characters spend the next two hours interacting in increasingly paranoid peace -- as opposed to the legitimate complaints about pacing, the fucking final two episodes, the characters being a bit too monodimensional, &c. Instead it's always "it's trying too hard and ends up being pretentious", as if using real mythology as the basis for your world is somehow supposed to be a statement of innate superiority... 

It's like, there are plenty of things to hate NGE (and more than a few to hate the fans of it for), but it always seems to come down to "Shinji's a whiny unlikeable bitch, Asuka's an angry unlikeable bitch, they had a shoestring budget, and some of their character motivations and symbolism seem vaguely familiar from my gen-ed courses so it's trying too hard." :/

it's worth noting that the symbolism/allusions has nothing to do with the actual point of the series and was added in to be more exotic to japanese audiences.

pre-E: Exactly, this is what I'm talking about above. It's just plain easier to use references to an existing (foreign) mythos than to create one from whole cloth. If they hadn't gone with Abrahamic symbols, it would have been constant references to something the writers had made up, or maybe something like the Norse mythos which would have been equally foreign.

[Neyvn]

This months Free 2day All Access Cruchyroll.com code is up for grabs...
Just a reminder, each month I recieve a Friend Code for someone to grab via PMing me which will give you access to all of Crunchyroll's anime and such for 48hrs, meaning you can watch the most recent episode which has been released for anime such as SAO2 and such or wait to use it for the weekend when Episode 7 is released and watch it the moment it does. All for free...

First to PM me gets the code, and remember you don't have to use it straight away...

[Neonivek]

Not having a likable protagonist is fine in an anime if it is intentional OR if they don't get a lot of screen time.

NGE however... not only is he sort of a black hole of attention, getting a lot more attention then he honestly deserves (which is the point)... But he is meant to be likable.

If you don't like Shinji, which is VERY possible, dear goodness is NGE going to be a slog. Since the entire point of it is supposed to be about an insane person who cannot handle stress who has the weight of the world put on his shoulders... with how it affects him and buckles down.

Mind you... there was one specific point where I just decided I just didn't like Shinji, or the anime in general... but I won't spoil it because it is very vital to the plot as it shows his moral degradation, sexual repression, as well as how he views the other characters in general. (and I don't take it as anti-hero because it is above and beyond the stress he is under...)

I don't outright dislike the anime, some parts of it is actually kind of interesting... I just dislike the plotting.

Basically if NGE was remade with NO characterized EVA pilots (or heck just pilots with no special powers or connections... like anyone could be a Eva pilot)... and was just about tacticians, scientists, and generals... I probably would really enjoy the series... and I don't even find the series to be particularly good in the action department either, it is probably why my favorite Angels are the ones that they don't actually "fight".

Which is kind of something to say... I'd love NGE if the characters and general flow of the narrative were entirely removed.

OHH GAWD! Now I am just imagining a NGE series without any of the characters with a big dumb smile on my face... Dang it me! that isn't going to happen... The creator believes the series is loved based off of its High-school relationships.

But goodness would that be interesting... because the Angel's powers and abilities are far beyond everything they know. So the entire point of the series would be to sort of understand the threat, as well as the technical aspects of the EVA and the pilot training.

[IronTomato]

Did anyone else hate Elfen Lied?

*Raises hand.*

Not gonna lie, I laughed through most of that series from its sheer fourth-wall-breaking awfulness. Everyone was either sympathy bait, a Machiavellian schemer, or both at the same time. The entire show felt like it could be summed up as "Tropes, but with violence!" Having sympathy bait characters is fine; but they can't ALL be sympathy bait characters, nor should they be so overt about it that you can predict their backstories just by thinking "What's the worst possible thing that could happen to this person?" Then none of them actually had any character aside from said sympathy-bait backstories. So the entire thing ended up along the lines of "Here's a cardboard box you should feel sorry for. Now watch as we stomp on this cardboard box. Are you sad now?"

Well, when you put it that way.

I've never heard of any of those tropes before, but I think I just realized that this show is pretty crappy. Is this what Stupid feels like?

*delete delete delete*

[Gnorm]

Shinji and Asuka are less entirely terrible and unlikable, most of the silly school and shower scenes are cut, intro song is not as good.
The third movie is weak due to it feeling like a prequel to something else, but the first two made me unable to hate Evangelion anymore. At least not completely.


Basically if you had things you didn't like about the original series, you have a much better chance of enjoying it. If you liked the show being all "deep" (pretentious) and Shinji being a completely useless twat, you'll dislike the changes.

I didn't end up disliking either Asuka or Shinji. They certainly weren't the most pleasant people by any standards, but they were interesting and had character. I didn't really like Asuka until End of Evangelion, and then I liked her more when I re-watched the series. Conversely, I liked Shinji until End of Evangelion, when he actually was a "useless twat."

Regarding the Biblical and Freudian concepts, I thought they made the series more interesting. Anno was a depressed guy, and the way the series is shown gives a look into his mind and the minds of his characters. The Biblical references were thrown in to make the show mysterious (though I do not remember any actual Bible quotes appearing in the show). Few people in Japan are Christian (to my knowledge), and the cross explosions are  probably just to look pretty. But at the same time, not every cross or Biblical reference is thrown in without meaning (such as the cross that can be seen behind Kaji before his death in "He was aware that he was still a child").

Regarding "Do you love me?" and "Take Care of Yourself," I find them fascinating final looks into the characters' minds and Anno's view of the world, but I agree that this is probably not the best way to conclude a series. Fortunately, End of Evangelion fulfilled the role of a conclusion, so the original ending can be appreciated for what it is, even if not for being a good ending.

As for what else has been said, I cannot say I recall any "tsundere harem romance." What fanservice exists is mostly too disturbing to actually be fanservice (to me, at least; plenty of people have no problem pairing Shinji with Rei). Also, I liked "Both of You, Dance Like You Want to Win!"

From what I've read here, it looks like I fall into the boat of fans(?) that enjoy a more "pretentious" Evangelion, and therefore I won't like the Rebuilds as much. I'm still going to watch them, but I really wasn't expecting to be pleased. The show doesn't really need to be remade. If the movies are too similar to the source, they seem pointless; if the movies are too different from the source, they seems unfaithful.

Anyway, that's my two-pennies-worth.

[IronTomato]

Wait, no, I take that back.

At this point I'm probably just beating a dead horse, but I'll say this anyway. Even though I've watched very little of it, I can't help but end up back where I started feeling like you guys make Elfen Lied sound way worse than it actually is. About the backstory thing, it's not really true, because plenty of the characters don't really even have backstories, from what I gather. They're alzo not all sympathy bait characters, in fact, the only ones I see are Nana, Kouta and Lucy. And the fact that they are sympathy bait characters is what the show's plot revolves around, because they're all having shitty times because of what other people put them through. The anime is meant to show how shitty humans can be, and to me, I dunno, I just think it shows it pretty well.

And yeah, a lot of people say it shallowly pretends to show these things, which I don't understand either. Yes, the gore and nudity is still there, but the fact that it is does not completely contradict thw fact that there is a plot.

Is there even anyone else here who likes it? Wikipedia says it got fairly positive reviews, and most of the reviews I've read seem to be moderately positive. Yes, it has big flaws, but they just don't stand out to me.

As long as people watch Sharknado, I will watch this.

[Neonivek]

It depends on how you take things.

For example I don't like Elfin Lied because of both its gore and because of its manipulative and shallow emotion evoking.

Yet at the same time, I've heard someone say that same thing about Persona 4's Nanako... which was basically true, so I didn't really argue back.

Yet in spite disliking both NGE (sort of... I am more.. neutral...) and Elfin Lied... I wouldn't argue that they are "bad".

Heck as I said earlier I HATE Familiar of Zero immensely. Yet I can see someone loving it because they think the abuse is hilarious... I don't think it is a bad series...

[Reelya]

>  there is a plot.

But there's not really. Because other than the gore / action bits it's the same plot as 90% of other anime shows. Teenage guy lives with X number of girls. Secret lab girls with superpowers is hardly revolutionary either. It's basically two incongruent types of show haphazardly glued together with craft glue, not even the good stuff.

This two types of show thing is exemplified in Lucy/Nyuus split personality. Its not just the girl who has that,the show is a split-personality show with two actual shows that barely join up.

[Neonivek]

There is a plot but the plot isn't one of... plot development or character development.

It is more about the angles.

Think of Elfin Lied as a situational comedy.

[Reelya]

And what plot developments there are are completely genre-predictable.

Evil organization/lab sends another mistreated battle-girl to capture/fight the boys harem of battle girls he rescued?

Spoiler: Predictable outcome (click to show/hide)

Mistreated battle girl escapes her controllers and sides with the heroes. who could have seen that coming? It only happens in EVERY BATTLE-HAREM ANIME EVER MADE. Unless she's frothing evil/insane (i.e. too violent/murderous to join the good guys) in which case she'll just die but take her handler with her.

In any harem anime, any action which ends with "harem size+1" is clearly not great plot writing.

[IronTomato]

Maybe I'm misenterpreting the word plot, because this is what I was trying to say the other day.

Yes, the premise is similar to many other animes, who cares? Because what happens after that? The show's plot.

The shit that happens.

In the show.

Instead of the fact that the guy lives with people who are females, and the people who are females have powers. Yes, this premise is unoriginal, and is flawed. I'll admit that. But there is a PLOT, a series of events throughout the episodes that seems to be progressing, and I seem to be enjoying watching.

Should I just conclude this as "It's not for everybody, who cares"? It feels as if a Shit Tornado™ is forming, which is mostly my fault.

NINJA EDIT: I was not aware that happened? You may have spoiled something, and once again, I have never seen that anywhere. To me, it looks like she died.

[Reelya]

I'd describe some shows as having "fake plot". that's where events happen but the actual setting never evolves. a giveaway is a domestic setting, or a school club whose membership never evolves beyond the first 4-5 episodes when they're introducing the characters.

Or, a monster-of-the-week type set up where the heroes face a series of baddies., but once they beat each baddie (this could last a few eps) the setting goes back to how it was right at the start, effectively it's "plot" loosely, but nothing evolved and you could skip the whole arc and miss almost nothing.

Of course, this doesn't mean those shows are not enjoyable, but basically like the  Simpsons, nothing really ever changes in the character relationships or setting. Usually, if they want a big "finale" with action then all the stuff will be crammed into the last few episodes. But ... if they push a "reset" button right at the last minute they can then create a sequel which pretends the ending never happened. This is having their cake and eating it too. "I'm not really dead!" is a popular rest-button.

note all these are general observations, and not really spoilers for any show in particular, because they happen in almost all shows of these genres. Manga-based works are worse at "fake plot" because of how they're serialized week-to-week. novel-based anime and anime-original works tend to have plots where previous events matter more to the final outcome.

[Neonivek]

Elfin Lied and NGE are two controversial anime series... or more accurately.

They are two series where you get pretty evenly people who think they are great and people who think they are terrible!

Mind you NGE really isn't aging well and I honestly think there is a growing number of people who dislike it.

While Elfin Lied is largely a product of its time and is mostly being left behind... mostly because Gorn Animes have been steadily going downhill in popularity.

So fans of both are only going down.

The other factor is that both the people who really love the series and really hate it... are very vocal.

---

Ippo stuff! and GRIPING! (because I am just full of positivity and warmth)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I am currently waiting for the "Champion Errant" Rookie Tiers to make a reappearance in Ippo... they make cameos but I have yet to see one actually make a stir.

I also had to check if professional women's boxing exists in Japan because honestly the series goes on like it doesn't exist... but to admit it is in character so it isn't like Prince of Tennis where they acknowledge it exists but all women are incompetent tennis players (and oddly enough the Tennis school has a sucky women's tennis team...)

As well given the age of the anime, the "lack of existence" with female professional boxing makes sense. Women's sports have really come a long way since the 90s... unless the series is a lot less order then I think...

Don't get me wrong I am not saying they need to show it... But there are an odd amount of women who seem to talk about Boxing as if it was a "Man's Sport!" and that women will just never understand (and sometimes the boxers just say "and women will never understand"). As well the only instance of a female boxing in the series was treated as a total joke. So I had to check if that was the case, but apparently today Japan has a modest professional women's boxing league.

Though given the very sexual nature of the anime, it might be intentional. >_>... I wonder how many people notice...

----

Ippo stuff and MORE griping!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also another "How the Hajime no Ippo doesn't know how injuries work"!

I know that the series is dated... so this is before Boxing did things like having a doctor look at a boxer immediately after, or even during, the match... or mandatory X-rays and mandatory doctor visits. But as I said, the characters in this must KNOW that the series won't seriously injure them...

They will just walk around with completely shattered ribs, serious concussions, and organ damage like it was nothing.

(Actually this was about something else... but I had to recheck the footage and indeed that type of injury wasn't done... so boo... and while the result was REALLY toned down... it isn't unusual for someone to be seemingly unaffected by that injury)

[TamerVirus]

Sheesh, while EL was meh, I didn't think it's was horrible. There are clear worse stuff out there

[Parsely]

How is Hajime no Ippo sexual?