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[Hawkfrost]

For the people who recommended Mirai Nikki and Elfen Lied, oi.  Maybe it's just me, but I really can't stand either of them, for various reasons. (All below is personal opinion.)
Elfen Lied especially is a show with no likable characters, no interesting plot, and nothing but a glut of excessive violence, rape, and forced harem bullshit.
Mirai Nikki is a bit better (since it actually HAS a plot of some sort) but as of what I saw of it I really didn't like anyone, and it contains much of the above issues. They both come off extremely tryhard to appeal to angsty teenagers who want to feel mature by seeing tits and gore. These should probably be prefaced by saying I stopped watching both halfway through. Does it suddenly become amazing by the end? I doubt it, but you never know.


Since I'm complaining anyway, Madoka really isn't a mindfuck, in any sense of the word. Both the twists and conclusion are rather predictable if you know anything of Faust. A "mindfuck", would be something that leaves the watcher unsure of what is real or not, not just something told out of sequence and with a degree of vagueness.
I guess maybe the third movie has a bit of that, but by lords...

Spoiler: Third Movie spoilers (click to show/hide)

That final "twist" was both awful and out of character, and really seemed to only be there because they wanted something dramatic to end on.

Nevertheless, Madoka is alright. A fair show but nothing something I'd put on my favorites list, or as an off-the-cuff recommendation.

...

I wish anime didn't feel the need to inject "comedy" into serious franchises in such damaging ways. Planetes, Hellsing Ultimate, Darker Than Black, Black Lagoon, and Berserk are all fantastic series that would be even better if they didn't include that. Double that sentiment towards fanservice.

[Bauglir]

Spoiler: Third Movie spoilers (click to show/hide)

That final "twist" was both awful and out of character, and really seemed to only be there because they wanted something dramatic to end on.

Spoiler: Probably Shouldn't Start An Entirely Spoilered Conversation (click to show/hide)

That's what I thought, too, at first. However, there're a couple of important things, most notably Homura's conversations with Sayaka and Madoka after her fight with Mami. Especially Madoka. Those are significant moments of character development, and they're what make Homubetrayal in-character. By the end of it, Homura is convinced that a world where everybody's problems are arbitrarily solved might be okay (Sayaka conversation), and more importantly that Madoka was really unsatisfied with what she did at the end of the anime. In the first case, Homura doesn't quite get that Sayaka's main goal is to ease up the implied self-loathing since she knows Homura is the witch, and in the second, she miscommunicates pretty badly, and Madoka in turn says exactly the wrong thing to cheer her up - giving her a reason to think she has more to do to help Madoka. Remember, Homura's major drive is protecting Madoka, and she was only satisfied with the sacrifice because she believed it was what Madoka genuinely wanted. She's willing to do anything for Madoka, and this conversation is what convinces her that what Madoka wants is to be overruled.

Once you're there, it all pretty much follows. She seizes power and brute forces the world into arbitrary happiness because she thinks that's what everyone's telling her they want. She's willing to accept being Madoka's enemy, even though she loves her, because she's willing to sacrifice anything, even Madoka's own attitude toward her, in order to protect Madoka. She calls herself Evil and behaves the way she does post-betrayal because she hates herself for what she's done (and so part of her wants others to hate her too), but she's come to the point of considering her own conscience just another sacrifice she has to make for Madoka's sake.

Basically, she gets to the point of deciding that nobody should be allowed to suffer but her. Homucifer is basically an embodiment of self-destructive, controlling, unfulfilling love (contrasted to Madokami's hopeful, supporting, benevolent love).

That said, I agree that they almost certainly had this ending planned before they figured out how to get there (IIRC, Word of God confirms that the idea for "plot twist" predated the script). It's very much not in-character for where she was at the end of the anime - which is what I both love and hate about it, because it's one of the best examples of implementing actual character growth in a sequel to a self-contained work that I've ever seen, but at the same time all of that development feels like it was there to justify getting to a conclusion they already wanted.

Anyway, that's a more detailed version of what I took away from it. It's very much a debatable topic.

[Arcvasti]

Finished binge watching all the Death Note animes[animu?] yesterday. The mind games were so intense. I loved it. All of it. And Misa was really adorable in a macabre kind of way.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Although the ending was sort of meh. Although that might be because I didn't WANT Light to die. Or Misa.

[Neonivek]

Finished binge watching all the Death Note animes[animu?] yesterday. The mind games were so intense. I loved it. All of it. And Misa was really adorable in a macabre kind of way.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Although the ending was sort of meh. Although that might be because I didn't WANT Light to die. Or Misa.

My response to the spoiler... is mostly. It is intentional.

That and it was pretty much alluded to since the start.

[Parsely]

I totally agree with everything you had to say about Elfen Lied, I watched it all and it's terrible.

Planetes, Hellsing Ultimate, Darker Than Black, Black Lagoon, and Berserk

I crossed out the ones I haven't seen.

Uh, I don't remember humor being that frequent in Berserk.. The humor fit in Planetes because it's about civilians, and Black Lagoon was never serious enough for it to bug me.

There is no fanservice in Planetes. There's only the one scene late in Berserk where Casca is naked (unless you also count that steaming hot water fight between Gutts and Griffith). I don't recall exactly what it was like in Black Lagoon but I have a vague impression it was pretty frequent. I probably enjoyed the action too much to care. There was also the weird thing with those kids but that wasn't fanservice, that just had to do with sex..

---

Okay, I liked Jormungandr until episode 3 where it starts with some important characters having a gunfight hardly 10 feet away from one another and suddenly couldn't hit a damn thing despite their skill in earlier episodes, then they took what seemed like a short encounter and stre-e-e-etched it into the next episode! I had to stop watching. I hope it doesn't do this again.

[tuypo1]

snip

snip

i dont think theres anything wrong with a conversation thats got to be completely spoilered gives me a great test of my willpower not to open them

[Neonivek]

You know... For once (technically twice... I have seen it before... but it technically didn't matter) I'd love to see the hero actually go "hmm permanently injuring myself and/or risking my life is not worth this match. I will surrender". Or better yet actually have there be a real permanent injury or die because they were a moron.

Prince of Tennis flip flopped around this issue A LOT and there is a reason why I hated the last season and this was a big part of it (I bet the last season was popular)... Yet even it didn't really escape the consequences of those actions (SORT OF!!!... once again terrible last season).

[Parsely]

Hajime no Ippo did the same thing, though they were sort of vague about the titular character's injury. He busted his fist and he's a boxer though, chances are that's going to permanently affect you.

[Neonivek]

Sounds like I am really going to enjoy Hajime No Ippo.

I will say that making Ippo a super genius Boxer was actually a pretty good move anyhow.

It allows the Hero to experience things at the same time we the viewers are, so everything fresh to us is also fresh to him. As well as allowing us to see his development as the show goes on, while also giving us some way to conceivably see him win. As well because he is a super genius but lacks the years of formal training most of his opponents have it allows the anime to flip flow whether he is the under dog or the top dog in any match. Making him "super strong" with incredible athleticism far outstretching everyone else, is simply the device that lets him win with the lack of training.

It is just interesting to see how framing is everything in a story. Since Ippo, being a super strong super fast learning natural boxer who learns counters specifically against you because he is fed boxing info from the press, could easily be some sort of near unbeatable opponent that the hero needs to beat. In fact several matches do just that and the story is more about how the boxer is supposed to beat Ippo.

In fact, so far whether or not Ippo is the force of nature or the underdog is close to 50/50 of his matches. Though I will say when he is the underdog, sometimes they go overboard in making him seem like one. Which is kind of annoying but whatever.

[Parsely]

I'm telling you his learning isn't that extraordinary.. The other boxers do the same exact thing when preparing for their fights.

[Neonivek]

I'm telling you his learning isn't that extraordinary.. The other boxers do the same exact thing when preparing for their fights.

They beef up aspects of their training that they already know or improve in general areas.

I have yet to see an opponent spend 2 weeks learning a counter for one of Ippo's moves when they simply never used a counter before.

Or learn an entire new type of boxing 2 weeks before a match... Or learn a new technique during a match... Or learned a move just by hearing it described.

No character pulls the type of crud that Ippo does in a short timeframe. Heck I have yet to see an opponent who "stood no chance against Ippo" suddenly jump up to his level in a single training montage.

Better yet the anime has shown characters attempt to do what Ippo does... and they fail miserably.

[JoshuaFH]

I'm telling you his learning isn't that extraordinary.. The other boxers do the same exact thing when preparing for their fights.

They beef up aspects of their training that they already know or improve in general areas.

I have yet to see an opponent spend 2 weeks learning a counter for one of Ippo's moves when they simply never used a counter before.

Or learn an entire new type of boxing 2 weeks before a match... Or learn a new technique during a match... Or learned a move just by hearing it described.

No character pulls the type of crud that Ippo does in a short timeframe. Heck I have yet to see an opponent who "stood no chance against Ippo" suddenly jump up to his level in a single training montage.

Better yet the anime has shown characters attempt to do what Ippo does... and they fail miserably.

For anyone familiar with Chess Boxing I'd kind of want to see Neonivek's reactions to a hypothetical Mahjong Boxing match between Ippo and Akagi.

[Parsely]

I'm telling you his learning isn't that extraordinary.. The other boxers do the same exact thing when preparing for their fights.

They beef up aspects of their training that they already know or improve in general areas.

I have yet to see an opponent spend 2 weeks learning a counter for one of Ippo's moves when they simply never used a counter before.

Or learn an entire new type of boxing 2 weeks before a match... Or learn a new technique during a match... Or learned a move just by hearing it described.

No character pulls the type of crud that Ippo does in a short timeframe. Heck I have yet to see an opponent who "stood no chance against Ippo" suddenly jump up to his level in a single training montage.

Better yet the anime has shown characters attempt to do what Ippo does... and they fail miserably.

For anyone familiar with Chess Boxing I'd kind of want to see Neonivek's reactions to a hypothetical Mahjong Boxing match between Ippo and Akagi.

That's pure sick genius. Akagi can really fight too, but I wonder how he'd do with a public audience watching.

[Hawkfrost]

I totally agree with everything you had to say about Elfen Lied, I watched it all and it's terrible.

Planetes, Hellsing Ultimate, Darker Than Black, Black Lagoon, and Berserk

I crossed out the ones I haven't seen.

Uh, I don't remember humor being that frequent in Berserk.. The humor fit in Planetes because it's about civilians, and Black Lagoon was never serious enough for it to bug me.

There is no fanservice in Planetes. There's only the one scene late in Berserk where Casca is naked (unless you also count that steaming hot water fight between Gutts and Griffith). I don't recall exactly what it was like in Black Lagoon but I have a vague impression it was pretty frequent. I probably enjoyed the action too much to care. There was also the weird thing with those kids but that wasn't fanservice, that just had to do with sex..

Oh, I wasn't referring to those when I was speaking of fanservice. None of them qualify, really.
I was speaking more broadly and in particular actually about Jormungand, because it was mentioned, and some others I've seen recently like Knights of Sidonia.
Maybe fanservice is fine for otaku who watch things alone and only communicate with others like that, but for people who like to sit down and enjoy a show or movie with friends, fanservice can absolutely kill the evening or make you just not even watch it due to the supreme awkwardness. It's cringey and unpleasant to experience in general, regardless, if you aren't watching the show to get aroused.


I haven't seen the Berserk anime, only the movies and roughly all of the manga (barring the newest chapters) and there are certain comedic elements that disrupt the atmosphere (Puck... all of the elves, looking at you.) I understand that it's in some respects the "Japanese way" to try and lighten up heavy moments and atmosphere with silliness to not overbear the audience, but I would respect a full commitment to theme much more. If your work is depressing, let it be depressing; That's what the viewer expects and accepts and likely part of the reason they are there.

Spoiler: Third Movie spoilers (click to show/hide)

That final "twist" was both awful and out of character, and really seemed to only be there because they wanted something dramatic to end on.

Spoiler: Probably Shouldn't Start An Entirely Spoilered Conversation (click to show/hide)

That's what I thought, too, at first. However, there're a couple of important things, most notably Homura's conversations with Sayaka and Madoka after her fight with Mami. Especially Madoka. Those are significant moments of character development, and they're what make Homubetrayal in-character. By the end of it, Homura is convinced that a world where everybody's problems are arbitrarily solved might be okay (Sayaka conversation), and more importantly that Madoka was really unsatisfied with what she did at the end of the anime. In the first case, Homura doesn't quite get that Sayaka's main goal is to ease up the implied self-loathing since she knows Homura is the witch, and in the second, she miscommunicates pretty badly, and Madoka in turn says exactly the wrong thing to cheer her up - giving her a reason to think she has more to do to help Madoka. Remember, Homura's major drive is protecting Madoka, and she was only satisfied with the sacrifice because she believed it was what Madoka genuinely wanted. She's willing to do anything for Madoka, and this conversation is what convinces her that what Madoka wants is to be overruled.

Once you're there, it all pretty much follows. She seizes power and brute forces the world into arbitrary happiness because she thinks that's what everyone's telling her they want. She's willing to accept being Madoka's enemy, even though she loves her, because she's willing to sacrifice anything, even Madoka's own attitude toward her, in order to protect Madoka. She calls herself Evil and behaves the way she does post-betrayal because she hates herself for what she's done (and so part of her wants others to hate her too), but she's come to the point of considering her own conscience just another sacrifice she has to make for Madoka's sake.

Basically, she gets to the point of deciding that nobody should be allowed to suffer but her. Homucifer is basically an embodiment of self-destructive, controlling, unfulfilling love (contrasted to Madokami's hopeful, supporting, benevolent love).

That said, I agree that they almost certainly had this ending planned before they figured out how to get there (IIRC, Word of God confirms that the idea for "plot twist" predated the script). It's very much not in-character for where she was at the end of the anime - which is what I both love and hate about it, because it's one of the best examples of implementing actual character growth in a sequel to a self-contained work that I've ever seen, but at the same time all of that development feels like it was there to justify getting to a conclusion they already wanted.

Anyway, that's a more detailed version of what I took away from it. It's very much a debatable topic.

You know, that's a much better explanation of the movie than what I gave it credit for. I've only seen it once, and was so irritated at the ending that I didn't bother to actually examine the motivations and conversations carefully (like you clearly have.)

[ToonyMan]

actually have there be a real permanent injury or die because they were a moron.

Have you read/seen Tomorrow's Joe??