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Author Topic: I like anime, do you like anime?  (Read 3141489 times)

Reelya

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28500 on: August 11, 2016, 02:37:48 am »

I think there are really a couple of different issues mixed up in there, and conflating them makes the issue much harder to discuss.

- "special parents" is one thing, this is where a claim of eugenics/nepotism could be claimed. But another way to look at it is that Japanese are more family-oriented and Americans are more individual-oriented (relative to each other). So when a character in an anime has some ancestor with the same specific trait that's more about adding flavor to the character than trying to say anything about "eugenics" or "nepotism". You can probably also see a shift in values systems in superhero origins. Old school superheroes often come from elite families, or have god-like origins. it's the more recent ones that have mundane "regular person" origins, and this reflects a shift in values systems between prewar America and postwar America.

- "unique ability" is something entirely different. And from examples we can see the core "unique power" that anime character have that set them apart from everyone else are usually gained through happenstance rather than family relationships (similar to superhero power origins).

it's wrong to try and say "well Luffy eating a fruit changed his genes, therefore it's genetic" because that completely obfuscates what the story is saying about the value system of the culture that creating it. Eating a magical fruit that give you personal superpowers is individualistic. Getting inherited superpowers is collectivist/family-oriented.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 02:41:39 am by Reelya »
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Neonivek

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28501 on: August 11, 2016, 02:56:12 am »

Quote
Old school superheroes often come from elite families, or have god-like origins.

Early Superheroes? It changed quite a bit, it depended largely on the trends at the time. As for god-like origins? No, that pretty much came much later.

Thor, as an example, wasn't "Thor" for most of his series. He was some loser who turned into Thor. Likewise while Silver Surfer certainly got the Godlike origins, it was because he was a supporting character in Fantastic Four's comic at the time.

Elite Families was not a strong trend in early Super Hero comics to be honest and most of the time it was a way to give them a sidekick. Superman was certainly... an annoying exception to this (and how WOOSH!)...

No really we could have a whole discussion on Superman's extended freeken family. I think the only major character in Superman's books (outside villains.. and even including some villains) who didn't end up somehow related to Superman was Perry White.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 02:59:01 am by Neonivek »
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Reelya

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28502 on: August 11, 2016, 03:12:41 am »

Thor was post-war however, and I specifically said that pre-war heroes more often had godlike origins. however, that seems like a very unlikely nitpick to make in light of this general discussion. Thor is a normal human imbued with the literal spirit of a Norse God, later revealed to have been that God all along. Trying to say that's "not godlike origins" because he had amnesia and it's a plot reveal later seems disingenuous.

Superman - genius alien family, last of his race, 100% genetic superpowers.

Batman - rich parents, enough said

Aquaman - his dad discovered Atlantis and used the knowledge of Atlantis to give his son fish-based abilities and powers. Which doesn't make a lick of sense, since Atlantis was powerful before it sunk under the sea.

Wonder Woman: basically a God origin. A magical warrior princess shaped from clay by Queen Hippolyta, and given powers by the Greek Gods.

Iron Man - rich parents

Wolverine - rich parents

Captain America - comes from humble origins, but he is in fact an author self insert, seeing as his career was the same as the writers.

Spiderman is an odd one out, but if you read the wikipedia page, he was unusual for a few reasons. He resembles the traditional teenage sidekick character more than he does the typical protagonist of a superhero series.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 04:04:47 am by Reelya »
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Neonivek

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28503 on: August 11, 2016, 04:23:56 am »

Quote
Thor is a normal human imbued with the literal spirit of a Norse God, later revealed to have been that God all along. Trying to say that's "not godlike origins" because he had amnesia and it's a plot reveal later seems disingenuous.

It isn't that. It is because "He was a god all along" was a twist that didn't come until way after the period we are talking about.

Quote
Wonder Woman: basically a God origin. A magical warrior princess shaped from clay by Queen Hippolyta, and given powers by the Greek Gods

This likewise didn't happen until the 1980s.

Quote
Spiderman is an odd one out

Spiderman and Ironman at the time would be the odd one out.

In fact Ironman being a "Millionaire Playboy" at the time of his creation? Yeah you are meant to dislike him for it. America didn't have the "Rich people are just flat out better than the rest of us" attitude at the time. Then again America was still undergoing the strong belief in the "American Dream".

Spiderman's whole spiel was that he was meant to be a more realistic portrayal of the whole Superhero thing. They didn't massage over details for Spiderman.

---

Now if you want a Super hero with a LOT of early weirdness that makes you wonder how the heck they became so popular...

The Hulk

Man that was a troubled first issues.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 04:40:23 am by Neonivek »
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Flying Dice

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28504 on: August 11, 2016, 07:25:10 am »

One Piece - Monkey D Luffy is a random kid inspired by a great pirate hero. Gets his powers from accidentally eating a "Gummi fruit". This again, is similar to superhero origin stories.
This... isn't actually true. Considering who he's related to and the significance of D names.

Sort of like how Naruto and Ichigo are both secretly superpowered because of their genetics as much as anything else. It's actually subverted in all three, none of them gain power solely through their own efforts.
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Reelya

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28505 on: August 11, 2016, 08:07:05 am »

Either way, their origins are largely indistinguishable from the stuff in superhero fiction.

Max™

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28506 on: August 11, 2016, 08:27:30 am »

Uh... Ichigo was like the definition of this trope, he was literally bred through ridiculous convolutions between Xanatos Gambit Master Aizen and Totally not God but literally God to end up as half everything or some shit, part human, hollow, shinigami, and quincy apparently, all before he was even born somehow.

Really not the right pick for "it wasn't just genetics" there, I mean, Naruto and Luffy have the strongdad thing on, but then the first one is outshined by ninjajesus and goddammit-how-are-you-even-alive-still-by-the-way-nice-giant-ninja-robot when they appear, while Luffy keeps getting his ass kicked and succeeding by just getting back up, or otherwise relying on his real genetic gift: friendship-no-jutsu.

Then you get Mr. Subaru, such a fuck-up he's not even sure he's the main character of his own show anymore, despite having enough genre awareness to think he's in a show.

Or Saitama, no clue what his parents are like, but barring him being bitten by a radioactive Charles Atlas (now THAT'S an origin story!) he's mostly just a subversion of the "hard work is the true route to power" since he didn't actually do the hard work, and then finds the power an unsatisfying reward.
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Mephisto

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28507 on: August 11, 2016, 08:37:50 am »

Or Saitama, no clue what his parents are like, but barring him being bitten by a radioactive Charles Atlas (now THAT'S an origin story!) he's mostly just a subversion of the "hard work is the true route to power" since he didn't actually do the hard work, and then finds the power an unsatisfying reward.

I saw a review of OPM that I think is plausible (if you need more than "it's a parody of shonen"). Crab man ate lots of crab and then turned into one. The review (don't recall which one, sorry for the lack of links) posits that Saitama doing an average amount of exercise really was what made him strong because he believed it would.

Looking back at what I just wrote, maybe it's not as good an explanation as I thought. Surely crab man didn't set out with the goal of turning into a crab.
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BFEL

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28508 on: August 11, 2016, 08:45:27 am »

Or Saitama, no clue what his parents are like, but barring him being bitten by a radioactive Charles Atlas (now THAT'S an origin story!) he's mostly just a subversion of the "hard work is the true route to power" since he didn't actually do the hard work, and then finds the power an unsatisfying reward.
Saitama DID do "the hard work", he just didn't do anywhere near as much of said work to warrant his abilities.
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Zangi

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28509 on: August 11, 2016, 09:22:11 am »

Japanese Animators/Mangaka, confirmed for being pro-eugenics.

Also, Naruto's mom is also related to/same clan as the 1st Hokage/Wood Guy.  He's got some pretty good genetics too. 
Plus, he was crap in the first place because of the Seals on the Nine Tails fucking with his stability/chakra/whatever to begin with.  Which was indeed fixed early on.
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Max™

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28510 on: August 11, 2016, 11:19:13 am »

Man, just got a weird sense that Saitama is kinda like that fisherman story from Bebop about the tamatebako, where the journey is supposed to be the reward, but you don't notice until you finish it.
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Tack

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28511 on: August 11, 2016, 12:03:32 pm »

The guy from Taboo Tattoo seems pretty normal. (But also judo master cos)

I think it's just a product of 300+ episode Shonen.
Eventually you'll have to get the parents involved just so people can still be surprised.
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Neonivek

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28512 on: August 11, 2016, 12:31:56 pm »

OPM also has Mamon Rider (my favorite character :P) who is the opposite of him. He did extensive training from hell and all he is, is KIND of good at Biking.

Ohh One Punch Man, I love you.

---

Though Reelya if you want something Anime did flat out better then most Western Shows (In fact i'd say all)...

Detective Conan.

As I've always said its strongest ability is that it remembers what a loss of life signifies and never treats a victim as just another body to add onto the pile.
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Flying Dice

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28513 on: August 11, 2016, 12:37:23 pm »

Japanese Animators/Mangaka, confirmed for being pro-eugenics.

Also, Naruto's mom is also related to/same clan as the 1st Hokage/Wood Guy.  He's got some pretty good genetics too. 
Plus, he was crap in the first place because of the Seals on the Nine Tails fucking with his stability/chakra/whatever to begin with.  Which was indeed fixed early on.
I mean the whole gorram story was all about "If you are borne into the Chosen Lines of Destiny you rock, if you aren't you suck and have to work four times as hard for smaller gains."

It's honestly hilarious how Kush-mojo Kappa completely and unintentionally(?) subverted the early themes of hard work and teamwork trumping raw talent that he had going early on.
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majikero

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #28514 on: August 11, 2016, 03:26:29 pm »

My take on Saitama in OPM is that he's a shonen protag where all the enemies don't power level with him. While he insist that his pretty average "training from hell" is the cause, you forget that he fights all the monsters he encounters.

Like the average shonen protag, today's bigbad is next month's mook. So he keeps fighting stronger and stronger monsters till all the monsters are just mook tier and lower. Then he still fights all the monsters he encounters.

Like a level 999 player that eternally grinds on level 100 enemies.
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