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[Chaoswizkid]

Teen Titans (the original) is probably a good example of drama and comedy done in a way that's more reminiscent of the themes we see from anime, but then again it came from DC Comics and they tried to tie it to Eastern animation as much as possible (art style and the opening done by j-pop sisters). It dealt with a lot of different themes, it was dark, it was mature, but it also never broke itself from being appealing to kids.

That's probably the best that Western animation has done in terms of a mature animated series. Where is the Western equivalent to Ghost in the Shell? Gunslinger Girl? Black Lagoon? Cowboy Bebop? Neon Genesis Evangelion? Where is the danger, the threat of death, the psychosis, the dynamic characters, the dark themes? I've not found anything that deals with that beyond Teen Titans, and even then it had way more comedy and was less invested in darker themes than any of the aforementioned series. Western animation is either for kids or young adults (from my observations it's rare to find anyone over the age of 30 that likes Family Guy/The Simpsons/South Park etc.), and if you want anything deeper you go for tv series, miniseries or movies. Japanese animation has a far broader scope than Western animation, so people in the West who aren't exposed to Eastern animation automatically apply all the stereotypes of Western animation to Eastern animation, and that won't change until Western culture completely assimilates Eastern animation (which it's done a pretty damn good job so far I've got to say) or something that breaks the mold in the West becomes super popular and influences further changes (since otherwise it'll just be considered a one-off special deal).

[Sirus]

Avatar: The Last Airbender maybe? Some of the DC animated series from the 90s/early 2000s?

[Neonivek]

Avatar: The Last Airbender maybe? Some of the DC animated series from the 90s/early 2000s?

It is more that we have found out how to make materials that transcends the phrase "It is for kids, it doesn't have to be good" and have made things that are objectively good regardless of your age.

Or rather... just because something is "made for kids" it doesn't mean it "isn't for adults" or that it isn't enjoyable or objectively enjoyable. Starwars was made for kids, Dr. Who was made for kids, and Peter Pan was made for adults (In the rare... adult material being great for children... assuming that movie is right). (Note I am excluding things... like Alice in Wonderland and Beyond the Looking glass, because those are generally rewritten to appeal to kids. Just like Oliver Twist is)

Also we did have the Spawn Cartoon if you want "Cartoon made for adults that isn't a comedy". Unless you mean "Great cartoon made for adults that isn't a comedy" in which case I'd argue against a few of your examples.

There is some scope in American animation, but to actually see it you REALLY have to go from the 80s to today. We are currently in what I call a "Comedy saturation". One genre I absolutely miss is the adventure genre of cartoons like Rupert, Aladin, and... dang I am having trouble remembering.

and DANG has Comedy saturation lasted a long time! over 10 years we have had almost nothing but comedies with only super hero action shows to break through (and that is excluding super hero action comedies... which we have had more then one of)

[Chaoswizkid]

Avatar: The Last Airbender maybe? Some of the DC animated series from the 90s/early 2000s?

The other DC animated series might apply, actually, yeah. I just don't recall them as easily.

Avatar I'd have to say doesn't really work in this situation. It tried its hardest to avoid darker themes in my opinion. There was a gigantic war that was supposed to be happening, and no one died. Ever. There were flamethrower tanks and nobody died. They were never really in danger of dying, either. Like, there was pretend danger, but by the time really serious things started happening, the show had already established that every character had immortal plot armor, even if they were extras (well actually one person died but it was pretty surprising considering, and one of the few instances where a character really didn't have to die). The show did handle some mature themes (maturity itself, healthy and unhealthy relationships, abuse, prejudice, imprisonment, harsh treatment of people, religion, violence), but it avoided from them becoming 'dark'.

[Neonivek]

Don't forget there are a lot of straight to DVD DC movies coming out in cartoon format and a few are pretty good...

And in the opposite of live action movies the DC ones are better then the Marvel ones.

And they are not "made for kids" so to speak.

[Sirus]

Avatar: The Last Airbender maybe? Some of the DC animated series from the 90s/early 2000s?

The other DC animated series might apply, actually, yeah. I just don't recall them as easily.

Avatar I'd have to say doesn't really work in this situation. It tried its hardest to avoid darker themes in my opinion. There was a gigantic war that was supposed to be happening, and no one died. Ever. There were flamethrower tanks and nobody died. They were never really in danger of dying, either. Like, there was pretend danger, but by the time really serious things started happening, the show had already established that every character had immortal plot armor, even if they were extras (well actually one person died but it was pretty surprising considering, and one of the few instances where a character really didn't have to die). The show did handle some mature themes (maturity itself, healthy and unhealthy relationships, abuse, prejudice, imprisonment, harsh treatment of people, religion, violence), but it avoided from them becoming 'dark'.

No one died on-screen. This was still a Nickelodeon primetime cartoon, don't forget. But we see plenty of injuries, implied death (watch the Day of Black Sun 1 and 2. Notice how the number of Earth and Water soldiers slowly but steadily decreases until only a handful remain...), and explicit references to death ("Those soldiers are the lucky ones; they came back. Every day the Fire Nation takes lives. People are dying, Aang!").

All things considered, it was still pretty dark and dealt intelligently with mature themes.

[Gentlefish]

Okay don't stab me. But the whole AT/Steven universe crew is like, doing some pretty heavy stuff. There've been on-screen deaths in Adventure time, lots of them, and some pretty gruesome moments, and Steven's mother is dead. And his father never really got over it.

[Neonivek]

But lets not plunge into the "dark and depressing is artistic" trap.

We are looking for "Mature" stories. they don't have to be dark, I think we all know that there are plenty of dark immature adult programming (Hey Law and Order Special Victims Unit)

[Chaoswizkid]

No one died on-screen. This was still a Nickelodeon primetime cartoon, don't forget. But we see plenty of injuries, implied death (watch the Day of Black Sun 1 and 2. Notice how the number of Earth and Water soldiers slowly but steadily decreases until only a handful remain...), and explicit references to death ("Those soldiers are the lucky ones; they came back. Every day the Fire Nation takes lives. People are dying, Aang!").

All things considered, it was still pretty dark and dealt intelligently with mature themes.

It definitely dealt well with mature themes, I wasn't arguing against that, just that it never went into 'dark' territory. The injuries tended to be minor, the death was only implied, and yes death was brought up but only in incredibly small doses when compared to the overwhelming amount of sunshine and roses and comedy, as if those mentions of the darker realm are what grounded it in reality rather than having a reality based around those dark themes, if that makes sense. That the show was Nickelodeon primetime is rather my point: it stayed very firmly in child-friendly territory, and that limited it from becoming something much more serious, even if it did handle mature themes.

But lets not plunge into the "dark and depressing is artistic" trap.

We are looking for "Mature" stories. they don't have to be dark, I think we all know that there are plenty of dark immature adult programming (Hey Law and Order Special Victims Unit)

The thing is, though, they pretty much have to be both mature and dark to have a real impact on Western animation. We get mature comedy but it's just comedy, we get kids' shows with mature themes but it's still a kids' show. It's still not Darker than Black, Attack on Titan, Fate/Zero, Fullmetal Alchemist (which is a perfect example of comedy, mature and dark themes that pretty much pleases everybody)... there aren't Western equivalents, or if there are they are very far from the mainstream and don't affect the issue of the preconceptions of the West about cartoons.

If you just have something that's "mature" then you get... like an animated version of a tv drama that's not a sitcom, which doesn't sound very appealing to me and I'd doubt it'd be popular.

[Neonivek]

If you just have something that's "mature" then you get... like an animated version of a tv drama that's not a sitcom, which doesn't sound very appealing to me and I'd doubt it'd be popular

You can have anything.

Not dark =/= without concequences, without negativity. It just means it doesn't wallow in misery.

The first Harry Potter book, for example, isn't a dark book. It has dark moments, but it isn't dark. (actually I am probably mistaken)

[Flying Dice]

I completely agree with Neonivek here, something doesn't have to be "dark" to be mature.


I.. I never thought that I would ever say those words. 

[Neonivek]

Well the person's objection wasn't that something needs to be "dark to be mature" but rather that a mature work that isn't dark is rather uninteresting.

Which I am going to call the "Grey is black Fallacy" (Or "Grey is White Fallacy")

Or more specifically that anything that isn't "Dark" is "Bright". Thus having "Dark" eat the middle ground.

[Sirus]

I.. I never thought that I would ever say those words. 

Which words? "I...agree with Neonivek"?

[Flying Dice]

I.. I never thought that I would ever say those words. 

Which words? "I...agree with Neonivek"?

Yep.

Well the person's objection wasn't that something needs to be "dark to be mature" but rather that a mature work that isn't dark is rather uninteresting.

Which I am going to call the "Grey is black Fallacy" (Or "Grey is White Fallacy")

Or more specifically that anything that isn't "Dark" is "Bright". Thus having "Dark" eat the middle ground.

Well, yes, but it amounts to the same thing: dismissing any work that isn't dark as immature.

[Chaoswizkid]

Again, I'm not saying that mature = dark, I'm saying that for something to have a significant impact it'd probably have to be mature + dark, and not just have "themes" but have it be based in "mature + dark".

I agree that plain old "mature" can be anything, but when I think of all the examples of anime that are really amazing and stand out and don't have Western equivalents, I'm getting stuff that's "mature + dark". What's an example of just a flat-out mature anime that really stands out and doesn't have a Western equivalent and isn't dark?

Actually wait, nevermind. Code Geass kind-of. It has dark, but it's not... made of it. It's mostly just flat-out mature. I guess that works then. What are the other examples that I'm missing?