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[ggamer]

Unless you count GT, in which case all this character development is thrown out the window in favor of BOPARAPARA BOPARAPARA BOPARAPARA BOPARAPARA

Neon Genesis Evangelion, Code Geass, Full Metal Alchemist, Fate/Zero, Black Lagoon, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann (only because Stealth Protagonist, invalid later), Samurai Champloo, Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica, Gunslinger Girl, SaiKano, Paranoia Agent, Death Note, Princess Mononoke, Spiral, Hajime no Ippo, Claymore, Kore wa Zombie desu ka?, Ergo Proxy, Digimon, Cowboy Bebop, and Shaman King (manga, because the anime probably ended in a silly way) would say otherwise, and most of those were taken to be distributed on US television (so they are some of the most popular series out there).

In each of those cases, either the protagonist doesn't always win, the protagonist experiences some very serious character development and isn't just given everything (or doesn't use that everything to its fullest extent), there are side/secondary or even tertiary characters that have their own very serious importance and character development, and/or the side characters are legitimately more powerful than the protagonist and either stay that way or most be overcome by serious development, etc.

-snip-

interestingly enough I either have or want to watch most of those anime. I found my favorite anime so far has definitely been either Black Lagoon or Gurren Lagann, and both of them play with tropes commonly found in anime.

On a different note, a friend is recommending I watch Fairy Tale after I finish Persona 4 and Legend of Korra, what does everybody else think of it?

[Vector]

I didn't like it.  Rave Master was way, way better.

[Neonivek]

I am not talking about animes where the exception exists.

Since as you will see many of these exceptions exist simply because the format is different.

Digimon

Uhhhh... Well ok original series this certainly doesn't do what I am talking about.

Everything afterwards though often falls directly under this... though they usually pick three characters to have a true arc. The Hero, the Rival/villain, and the other one.

That's not just a standard for anime, y'know. That's almost like a universal standard. Need I bring up Twilight? It's definitely not specific to Japanese animation, or even any kind of media in general. It's just easy to write. Like how Mary Sues are popular, yeah?

Yeah but Anime likes to at least pretend there is a point to the secondary characters. "Hey I have an emotional arc, a clear goal, and a motivation. Everything needed to be a dynamic and full characters... Am I?"

Writer checks the list: "No not really... you are actually more of a obstacle for the main character to overcome in the guise of a well rounded character and your motivations will be thrown out as soon as that happens."

"What? What hack anime is this?"

"Anime? This is Ratatouille"

Yeah... and Dragonball wasn't even like that, most of the time

Dragonball was when the show still worked and worked well. Other characters actually got victories and their arcs actually played out in full and they weren't brushed aside (well except Yamcha... poor poor Yamcha).

about Goku's maturation

I always thought that the entire point of Goku was that he was Peter Pan and that his child's heart was the source of his great strength.

It is sort of what made Gohan seem incredibly disturbing. Since Goku is basically a child and lacks... understanding.

Neon Genesis Evangelion

Loser one note pilot who is the main character over much more interesting and deep characters? check! Has a smug rival? Check!

 

Gunslinger Girl

Blank slate main character with smug more interesting rival? Check!

In each of those cases, either the protagonist doesn't always win

Who ever said the protagonist never loses? The key is that the protagonist wins passively.

Heck in Dragonball it takes more then half the entire anime before Goku legitimately trains or practices.

 

You're mostly talking about DB/DBZ, the Big Three, Fairy Tail, etc

Oddly enough that wasn't even what I was referring to. Given the animes I watched what I spoke of is more indicative of the hobby and martial art animes.

Also Fairy Tail is certainly not that... Admittingly Natsu doesn't have as much character development as everyone else does (in fact he has the least) and Grey seems to have reverse character development (In that he seems to get LESS mature as things go on) but no.

And Dragonball REALLY isn't that, at least after the first arc (and even then the first arc was an adventure... So it wouldn't even count). DBZ though... yeah...

you absolutely cannot make a blanket statement when a lot of the more famous series refute that

Refute what? "Most" your statement doesn't disprove most.

I can come up with a lot of romance novels that aren't, for example, garbage... but it doesn't mean I've disproven their existence.

[Vector]

When I say Dragonball I mean the whole thing, Dragonball/Z.  Goku's great strength comes from the fact that he is content to compete with himself and not concern himself overmuch with how others are doing.  He's not egotistical or selfish.  Sure, he has plenty of other character flaws, but--fundamentally--it's about Kantian vs. utilitarian ethics systems.  This is outlined in Vegeta's big speech while Goku and Buu are whaling on each other at the end of the series, right before they figure out that Goku isn't going to be enough.  Which is right before they figure out that Goku-and-Vegeta are not going to be enough.  Which is right before they figure out that the named main characters will not be enough, and the battle is won thanks to a powerless idiot who happens to be good at getting along with people.

Yamcha's got an arc throughout the whole story.  It's about he keeps protecting Bulma long after she doesn't love him anymore, because it's the decent thing to do.  If you check what he's doing in the background, that's what the art keeps showing him doing.  Doing his best to take care of Bulma, and getting killed a lot for it.  It's not that he particularly likes fighting, it's that he likes her.

Kuririn/Krillin's story is about his overcoming his poor self-esteem and deep hypocrisies (you know... this is why he finally admits he's not a monk and lets his hair grow back in).

Piccolo's story is about his growth as a mentor figure and the acceptance of his cultural heritage (he's a foil to Goku in this respect, as they both deal with similar themes in radically different ways).

Hell, look at Mr. Satan/Hercule.  His story is about, once again, learning to accept his own inner qualities--his deep capacity for friendship and love--in a situation where he finds himself suddenly powerless.

Gohan's story is about his attempt to throw off his own cultural identity and background, his history of violence, to do what's best for him (foil to Vegeta).

Similarly: Trunks' story, both present and future, is about his responsibilities to his parents.

Bulma's story is about learning constancy and abandoning egotism.

I could go on and on and on.  Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that they all have character arcs, but they're not necessarily where you see them because more often than not, they information lies in background art and what people are doing when various shit goes down.  It's not explicit, it's subliminal.

The reason why the Big Three seem so formulaic is because they apparently didn't understand, in their attempts to copy the Toriyama style, that Dragonball is not actually about fistfighting.

[Neonivek]

Bulma's story is about learning constancy and abandoning egotism

I really don't think it was. Yes that is how she grew as a person, after the time skip.

Not all character development is part of the character arc.

Heck the point to Goku is honestly that he doesn't change. At least in my opinion.

" It's not that he particularly likes fighting"

Honestly I think Yamcha was originally intended to be the "Secondary main character" to balance out Goku... but had his role severely diminished when they found out he wasn't really all that interesting.

The reason why the Big Three seem so formulaic is because they apparently didn't understand, in their attempts to copy the Toriyama style, that Dragonball is not actually about fistfighting.

It has to do with a lot of things. If you pull back the layers you see why characters are set up that way.

The Bland uninteresting perfect hero for example.

The characters lack of interest or real personality allows the audience to project themselves into it. If the person is interested in the subject (such as Mechs or poker) their disinterest is shown by the character and their journey to appreciate the subject matter is reflected in the character. At the same time they are already "perfect" and thus their perfections are given to the audience... a sort of child's "Be good without practicing".

The issue is that the bland character tends not to have anywhere to go. So what they do is they fill the manga/anime with a lot of interesting characters with personalities, interests, and arc to literally serve as filler for when the main character cannot be front and center (because... bland hero is bland). Yet they have no real interest in developing these characters. OR they give a secondary hero meant to be the opposite (a interested, motivated character who has a lot to learn. Momo from Prince of Tennis is the prime example. He is the secondary main character and for most of it he is the only one who actively improves and evolves) often these secondary heroes will become unimportant should the main character go through their development arc.

This isn't really the Twilight effect in my mind. Twilight is slightly different because Bella isn't the real main character of her own story, it is Edward.

Other stuff has to do with the demographic.

Mind you I do not mean "static hero".

[Chaoswizkid]

Neon Genesis Evangelion

Loser one note pilot who is the main character over much more interesting and deep characters? check! Has a smug rival? Check!

Well, of course, I wasn't arguing that the main character is more interesting than the other characters, for NGE I was arguing that characters other than the main protagonist are allowed victories, they go through extensive character development, the main character can fail, the main character isn't some obnoxious powerhouse, etc. Your argument isn't ONLY about the main character being boring, which is why I included a list of reasons why the animes I listed refute your statements.

Gunslinger Girl

Blank slate main character with smug more interesting rival? Check!

See above.

In each of those cases, either the protagonist doesn't always win

Who ever said the protagonist never loses? The key is that the protagonist wins passively.

And in a good number of those, the protagonist does NOT win passively, which by the way why are you even upset if they win passively? That's like basic fundamentals of a story for a protagonist. Other stories where that doesn't happen are noteworthy just due to the fact that they don't operate that way.

you absolutely cannot make a blanket statement when a lot of the more famous series refute that

Refute what? "Most" your statement doesn't disprove most.

Refute this:

Yet most anime doesn't give you much pay off as only the main character is allowed to actually succeed at anything substantial except one off victories. Which wouldn't be too much of a problem but everyone else is always more interesting then the main character. They have emotional arcs other then "I get angry and win", plotlines, and they actually have to work at their successes. It is actually kind of odd because these animes will always paint the main character, who is given everything, as the underdog and yet really everyone else is for needing to face up against the unstoppable hero.

It is why often in some animes they give the ordinary hero who is good at everything (Standard fanfare). Then they give the "good but not too good" secondary hero who actually gets to improve and have arcs.

This can happen in reverse, in this case the secondary hero tends to be very smug about being the "clearly superior character" until defeated later.

in regards to this:

I will agree that there's a good number of series that are just dumb like what you're complaining about, but you absolutely cannot make a blanket statement when a lot of the more famous series refute that. You're mostly talking about DB/DBZ, the Big Three, Fairy Tail, etc. which are all stupidly popular but they are by absolutely no means the standard of anime if we're talking about what gets adapted to the West, and by no means the standard of what is considered good anime, rather than popular anime, if we're talking about anime in general.

[Neonivek]

And in a good number of those, the protagonist does NOT win passively, which by the way why are you even upset if they win passively? That's like basic fundamentals of a story for a protagonist. Other stories where that doesn't happen are noteworthy just due to the fact that they don't operate that way.

Because you see everyone else. Animes like to make it a point to show "HOW DOOMED" the main character is usually by showing how dedicated their opponents are. As well the other less important heroes, because they are not as good, are usually shown as dedicated to whatever it is they do.

The hero however rarely needs to work at their craft (unless it is a training arc or a power up arc... but I am talking most of the time). Thus they are the least appealing character.

Now what a lot of animes will then do is have the main character lose eventually to convince them to take things seriously.

It creates a dichonomy where the other heroes actually have a lot more stake because the anime/manga actually invests more into their arcs then the main character (who is just good at everything by default). Their loses actually carry weight both emotionally and contextually. Add in that the main character tends to care a lot less (unless he is "mad" the only other emotion the blank character can have).

---

Definition: One true Love Harem: Made up term for a harem where the final love interest is known immediately from the start or at least within 10% of the series.

Other kinds of Harems are: Everyone has a chance harems, and No Chance Harems (Harems where there can be no winner)

----

they are by absolutely no means the standard of anime if we're talking about what gets adapted to the West, and by no means the standard of what is considered good anime, rather than popular anime, if we're talking about anime in general

Well if we are to use Light Romantic Comedies as an example... I am basically complaining about the Romantic Comedy formula.

Those will instantly make a romantic comedy popular, but they are by all means not the only way to do a romantic comedy and there are exceptions... But you are not going to find the paint by numbers anywhere else, at least not as deliberately.

For example people bring up Western animation. Most of them do not even pretend like a character is important. (My personal theory is that manga/anime like to set up character arcs and only fulfill them if a character proves popular enough... either that or if it is a team or some other format. Given that most mangas are not fully planned out, Bleach for example, this shouldn't be too surprising)

I'd say I am talking about the "bad ones" but honestly... quite a few of them are the good ones (usually either by ascending itself, deconstructing, or being good in spite of itself... heck Gunslinger Girls for example is a paint by numbers anime as evident by Excel Saga doing a spot on parody of it years before it existed).

Which is why I talk about it here, to let off some steam. It is why I wish there was a good anime parody anime... Like a new Season of Excel Saga.

[Mr Space Cat]

Wow, anime is srs business.

Since romantic comedies were mentioned I'mma just shoehorn an anime I think is good and everyone else should know mention that "My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU" pretty much subverts most tropes of romcoms at some point or another. The main characters are all odd, different, or "losers" in some way, the main character -or hero, if you prefer- literally goes through the series without breaking his "IDGAF" routine and makes little effort to overcome his problems (that he's a "weird" pessimistic loner with -GASP- next to no friends) and even in the first episode he vocally shows his dislike of the "world's attitude" that he needs to change to fit the world.

so basically the main character is a dude with problems, which he is perfectly aware of, and a stubborn pessimistic attitude that is firmly set against changing how he acts for the sake of fitting in with everyone else. If that doesn't sound different from most animes then I clearly don't watch enough anime.

So yeah, if anyone's interested in a series that does not fit conventional anime tropes or gimmicks or whatever I'd recommend SNAFU. It's a nice break from the standard POWER OF FRIENDSHIP feel good animes.

Admittedly, this is not one of the popular animes deemed fit for english dubbing or regular airing on TV like say dragonball or pokemon or yu-gi-oh like what was mentioned occasionally. Still better than nothing.

Anyway, shameless plug over, feel free to get back to arguing on the very fabric essence of anime or whatever. It's almost 2 in the morn for me here and half of this discussion flew over my head, and the other half I don't feel like reading.  I could be horribly off the mark with this shameless plug.

[Neonivek]

Honestly if I say an anime where the main character didn't do something because it was the smart thing to do... I'd probably be left there with my jaw dropped.

Main characters don't have very strong self-preservation instincts.

"What was that? They insulted my girlfriend? Walking on broken glass with our bare feet contest NOW!"

The WORST anime for that is flat out Prince of Tennis. Sure there are animes where the main character gets beaten up more severely or does dumber things... but never before was there an anime where they shown the consequences, told you that they shouldn't have done it, and then completely contradict it later.

[Parsely]

Watching all of Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Already finished the first prequel movie and halfway through the second.

[Vector]

Dude, Goku changes >_>  But he is what, in his 60s by the end of the manga?  His character development isn't as much the focus.

[ToonyMan]

Watching all of Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Already finished the first prequel movie and halfway through the second.

See you in two months.

[Neonivek]

Dude, Goku changes >_>  But he is what, in his 60s by the end of the manga?  His character development isn't as much the focus.

I mean his personality doesn't change. Not that he never ages.

Which once again makes the whole... Child thing sort of rapey.

[Haspen]

Watching all of Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Already finished the first prequel movie and halfway through the second.

See you in two months.

Hey, I've restarted watching the main series week ago and I'm already at episode 59

I'm giving him a month.

Oh right, GUNINANRUNIN; invest in some tissues for some episodes

[Furtuka]

Is it bad that I keep watching this over and over?