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[Creamcorn]

I'm just going to be foward.

1. Painters

2. What to do with constructed walls

3. A few more ethics

4. More depth religions!

5. Sacraficing ethics

6. Sacing methods

1.
Painters, which should be a noble title, and treated like philosophers, i.e. they really do not do much or demand anything. Of course the title fails the, "dose not do much" part.

Requirments should be materials to basic colors, red, green, blue, etc. Any type of office, and room. Along with certain requirements for a canvas, parchment or just some stone slab. Painters should just paint, which can either be brought by other nobles, set up in a dining room or sold to caravans I suppose normal dwarfs could purchase paintings if they have the money.

As for the canvas, I figure they should just be handled as this is a small, large, expansive landscape, portrait, depection, etc of FOO. They should also be able to color in that ugly yellow stone engravings to something less annoying.

2.
Which leads me to another part of what to do constructions, yes if you have half a brain you know where I'm going with this. In order to create any type of fresco,(not familiar with the terminology) the wall or ceiling, (if you can) must be made of any type of block construction. Paints on the other hand!

Not so familiar with paints to be honest with you, someone else can handle that.

3.
Another thing that had been bothering me are perhaps new ethics which are waaaaay later to be considered in game, but I'm going to go there either way.
Canibalism-100=Automatically considers it in a dire situation/accepts if they're chosen
                75=In most situations creature goes with it, but will in most cases look for a way out of it
                50=Creature considers it as part of survival situation, but must be very hungry to do so
                25=Very last thing on creature's mind
                10-0=Almost unthinkable to the creature

Dire- Whether or not the creature considers to eat or drink disgusting things, i.e. urine, bugs etc, I guess for the most part it works like canibalism.

4.
I'd also like to see more religions revolve around sacrafice, of course I've already seen some dev things which hint to this, of course the kinds of sacrafices should go with the god's sphere, death spheres should not involve sacraficing creatures, but should be considered an ethic. Death should involve something like collecting bone idols or laying sacraficial food for ancestors which should also be a new sphere or eithic.

5.
Religion ethics
Sac_Animals-Non sentient beings
Sac_Self-Whether or not creatures sacrafice their own kind
Sac_Fanciful-Has a tendency to grab more fancy creatures
Sac_Trinkets-Idols, toys or anything worth less than 200 dwarf bucks
Sac_Valuables-Relates to anything worth more than maybe 200 dwarf bucks
Sac_Treasures-Anything going into the 1000 dwarf bucks.
Sac_Prisoners-Whether or not POWs are killed for fun or for gods
Sac_Age-I'm guessing 100 means anything goes, while 0 means the creature must be very old? Maybe this one should just be ignored.
Sac_Danger-Creatures likes to sacrafice dangerous enemies for their gods
Sac_Corpse-Creature considers whether or not that neat corpse would please their god
Sac_Virgins-Naw jk

6.
Of course there should be ways to do this! Bleeding, brutally murduring, etc

Smh_Bleed-Creature lets their fodder's blood run down their temple stones, something like that.
Smh_Brutalize-Creature horribly manes their fodder for their god includes any kind of weapons of course corresponding to thier god, jewels a diamond dagger? Stone obsidian knife? War any two handed weapon? Or mabye just good ol righty, and lefty?
Smh_Burn-Creature lights a huge bon fire, and dances around their light fodder in religious ecstacy

Urgh the methods are kind of endless here, guess we should just choose which ever were common in ye olden days.

Now I am done, and can live with less regrets.

[Neonivek]

Whoa I am starting to get strong Militant Athiest vibes. (I spent too much time on the Spore boards).. Ill ignore that... let me see

1) I disagree... That removes the "Starving artist" possition.

2) This gets suggested a lot

3) You need to modify your Canibal ethics a bit... where is Canibalism as a snack, whenever someone dies, or as punishment for crimes?

4) Yeah religion is going to get major changes as time goes on. I am sure ritual/Martyr sacrifice will be some of it

5) Sac? is that sacrifice, Sacrifice, or Sack?

6) ahh it is sacrifice.

I think you need to seperate Sacrifice, Donations, and tributes from eachother as well as a Religion's responsibilities. For example if they expect regular donations of gold where are they going to put it?

You could also determine how active the Religion is in the lives of the citizens. Will they buy up land train their own military? Is the Head Priest the leader of the civilisation?

[Impaler[WrG]]

I would like to see a Painter profession, simply because something is rare doesn't mean it should be a noble only activity, most artists of the middle ages (or any age for that matter) have been of humble origins and means.  I could see these Painters decorating walls with frescoes (uses some units of Paint) and floors with mosaics (uses some units of stone/glass/metal bits?) that makes them functionally similar to Engravers.  Creating Paintings on Canvas would be an added bonus especially if we can then 'hang' the paintings on the walls.

[Foa]

I am all, for the sacrifices, wink wink, nobles.

[LegoLord]

I dunno, I like the Noble painter idea.  In older days painting was a much more profitable profession, as people could not take pictures.  The nobility would frequently search for the best painters to do portraits for them.  Perhaps it should work like this:  Painting is a profession that can be disactivated by the player.  However, it requires that the dwarf already has some painting skill.  Then, the Painter Noble arrives (or a migrant painter gets to master skill?), and you can activate painting for any dwarf.  He will have painting active, and will also teach other dwarves how to paint.  When the Painter dies, the dwarf with the highest painting skill will become the new Painter.

[Silverionmox]

Why complicate it so much? Painter is a profession like jeweler. Painting requires pigment (ground mineral, plant dye, animal secretions, whatever), a medium (linseed oil (from flax), egg yolk, lots of possibilities), a suitable surface (stone, wood, cloth on a frame,..), paintbrush. Maybe an easel. Produces paintings: an object which may later be assembled into triptychs or diptychs and could be mounted on walls.
Frescoes: only as an engraving, and that would require pigments, brushes, plaster (made by heating gypsum) and a trowel.

[Neonivek]

I dunno, I like the Noble painter idea.  In older days painting was a much more profitable profession

Well it was more because there was such strong barriers to becoming a painter since paints and canvas were very expencive! So anyone who was a painter HAD to be earning tons and tons of money or else you were out of the buisness. So basically being the starving artist was out of the question.

Of course it also depends what time period your in... In some painters are a dime a dozen.

Anyhow with respect to a "Royal Painter" I really don't see why they get exception... I don't see many professions not getting a royal version and even then a lot of them arn't really nobility anyhow but just very rich people who were often commissioned by royalty. (They weren't owned by Royalty or even working for them most of the time) which is already represented in game as the blinking people anyhow.

[varkarrus]

What? No virgin sacrifices?

Here are my 2 ideas:

1) Virgin Sacrifices
2) Me as a god.

[Warlord255]

What? No virgin sacrifices?

Here are my 2 ideas:

1) Virgin Sacrifices
2) Me as a god.

A problem;

1. The game does not currently track sex. Reproduction via dwarf-spores, etc.
2. You haven't built yourself a temple yet.

[LegoLord]

Why complicate it so much? Painter is a profession like jeweler. Painting requires pigment (ground mineral, plant dye, animal secretions, whatever), a medium (linseed oil (from flax), egg yolk, lots of possibilities), a suitable surface (stone, wood, cloth on a frame,..), paintbrush. Maybe an easel. Produces paintings: an object which may later be assembled into triptychs or diptychs and could be mounted on walls.
Frescoes: only as an engraving, and that would require pigments, brushes, plaster (made by heating gypsum) and a trowel.

Why complicate it?  Because it keeps you from getting a legendary painter when the guy hasn't even touched a canvas before, which is understandable with other professions, but not painting.   Trust me, if you are just painting on your own without ever having someone teach you something about painting, you won't ever be that good. At all.  You can improve, but you'd have to be immortal to become a master.  Just compare the art of all the centuries, and you'll see that.

Perhaps the Painter could be elected instead, like the mayor, but it is based on skill and his friendliness with other nobles (as opposed to the entire population of the fort).  It would add an interesting new noble that is actually different from most of the others (in other words, he actually does something, which I would love to have  ).

One more thing:  How is painting like a jeweler?  They only need something to mount the gem on and some gems.  You've got some giant list of painting supplies, and painting takes a great degree of focus if you want to make the picture look real.  Jewelers don't have to focus to make what they do look real, because the stuff they work with should do that on its own (and they normally use one color).

[Hectonkhyres]

Ah, but some painters are struck by the magical inspiration fairy. Repeatedly. With a blunt object. In fact I have a far easier time imagining a random painter going into a mood and becoming brilliant overnight than I can with, lets say, your mug making sweatshop monkey.

I subscribe to the previously mentioned idea of making painters just another profession. Via their workshop they should be able to manufacture paintings (like any of the furniture makers) or be tasked with decorating walls the same way we engrave today. Unlike engraving, it should require resources: some sort of clay base (finally a use for topsoil, though ground rock mixed with water might also do) to make a fresco plus whatever pigments are necessary.

How you handle pigments is indeed the question. We could just do away with the idea entirely as classical painters tended to manufacture their own pigments from, well, practically anything. Have your painter spend some time in his workshop mixing some generic pigments and consider this part done.

Second idea is to give them to the alchemist: we need the alchemist to do something and this is definitely within his purview. You could automate it and say 'Create Yellow Paint' and, by god, he just does it. He goes out and picks some yellow flowers or grinds up a block of orpiment or does something horribly unpleasant to a canary. Or we can just leave the raw materials out of it and just assume he found the necessary reagents somewhere, creating paint with only an expenditure of time. Or you could be ultra dwarfy and require micromanagement to capture and grind up each and every canary one at a time. Canary genocide for great justice!

Third is just buy a barrel of each kind. For the caravans to work somebody somewhere must be manufacturing it, but (while the player could make his own using some byzantine process) its probably just easier to buy a dozen kegs.

[LegoLord]

All right, but can they at least require the presence of better-than-novice painter to get past novice skill?  Good paintings are worth a lot of money, and being able to get them that easily would break the game.

[Warlord255]

All right, but can they at least require the presence of better-than-novice painter to get past novice skill?  Good paintings are worth a lot of money, and being able to get them that easily would break the game.

I know there's a biting comment on the state of the current art world (IRL) lurking in there somewhere.

[Hectonkhyres]

I'm not quite sure how to read your post, LegoLord, but I will make a blind stab at replying anyway.

For the manufacture of paintings... yeah. I can see why you wouldn't want there to be a large discrepancy in value between the first work Urist McSoapmonkey and Urist DaVinci. The novice's painting should be worth practically nil, perhaps less than the canvas expended in their creation*, while even the most mediocre piece of a grandmaster should be worth oodles.

But I don't think somebody should be prohibited from becoming a master painter just because they don't have a dirty immigrant master painter from whom they can mooch talent off of. Lots of painters are self taught.

You can keep painting from becoming a game breaker through several methods-

• 1) As I said, a novice's paintings literally are not worth the canvas they are painted on. This would be a major barrier to entry into the industry as you have to support an artistic moocher for years on end and feed him a neverending river of supplies.
• 2) Caravans are hesitant to accept paintings in trade because said traders aren't sure where the hell to sell them. If they accept them they are bought at a fraction of their normal cost. Masterpieces and high quality works from a famous artist may be sold at full price.
• 3) Nobles (both in-fortress and from cities abroad) periodically commission paintings for a given fee. However you will probably only get one commission in a very long while due to scarcity of demand.
• 4) Paintings take a long and very variable time to create. Urist DaVinci spends two dwarven months painting a picture of werewolves eating a soapmaker in a room slowly filling with lava and decides to start all over again.
• 5) Painters are universally suicidal. A dwarf who wants to paint cardinals spends months in the grasses and trees painting from life... in exactly the right place to be murdered or kidnapped in the next ambush.
• 6) Everyone can be a painter but not everyone can be a good painter. Artistic aptitude is just one more thing on the dwarven personality screen.

Mix and match at will.

*But even the most pathetic paintings should have one saving grace: their canvases are reusable.