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[kuro_suna]

Disagree. Nobles should be a challenge to appease, and if you fail they will exert their wrath upon your hapless dwarves.  To fix the problem, the penalty for killing nobles (or allowing them to die) needs to be increased.

One solution to this could be that after the economy starts up if they really want a bronze object they can just buy one instead of bugging me.

[Foa]

Disagree. Nobles should be a challenge to appease, and if you fail they will exert their wrath upon your hapless dwarves.  To fix the problem, the penalty for killing nobles (or allowing them to die) needs to be increased.

One solution to this could be that after the economy starts up if they really want a bronze object they can just buy one instead of bugging me.

Good, they get costly things by themselves from the caravan, and you'll be happy, it's just request what they want automatically...

Just set up their allowance, and they'll be off shopping.

[eerr]

nobles wouldn't be so bad if they had real backstory.
but as it is- they've got less than a typical migrant!,

at least that migrant worked for a living, whether in meanial tasks or a labor of varying fruitfullness (i spy a soapmaker!)


the nobles have no justification for why we should worship the ground they stand on other than "ooh i'm purple and famous somewhere else"

in fact, if champions instead of nobles made mandates i would happily oblige the most rediculous request as best i could

[Impaler[WrG]]

A nobles' happiness shouldn't directly affect the happiness of the population. That's some weird hivemind stuff right there.

If a noble is unhappy, it should affect the other dwarves for actual honest-to-god reasons. For instance, he could make more mandates/demands, get angry with people, start fights, sentence people to punishments for petty things, etc.

I think he was just talking about the idea of a happy noble giving the fort happy thoughts.  Instead, a happy noble should do things that gives the fort happy thoughts, rather than just psychically beaming happy rays at everybody.  And the same for unhappiness.

I'm proposing an abstraction not a hive mind or 'happy rays'.  In a society ware the king IS powerful enough to have people arbitrarily punished then the citizens most definitely WILL be concerned with the kings moods and whether he is likely to have them hammered on the slightest pretense.  Living under that kind of fear is a major downer, likewise the feeling of safety and security that a benevolent ruler can provide would be a major boost to moral.  Their are countless literary allusions that go so far as to associate the kings physical health with the crop harvest and in the fantasy setting of DF such magic would not be completely out of place. 

In reality the popular 'gossip' engine of a medieval society would need to transmit information on the kings moods and simply making a global effect saves a bunch of programming overhead by abstracting away the gossip.  The game already allows every dwarf telepathic knowledge of the location of every item in the fort not because it's appropriate but because its programmaticly necessary.  I suppose some system could be created that actually exchanged an information token on the kings mood between dwarfs when they spoke but it would be a lot of work to get the same effect.

[Gertack]

I got tired of murdering all my useless nobles when they made silly mandates and got useful dwarves killed or when they collected a hundred flutes, so I used Dwarf Manager to assign hauling jobs to all of them, except for the King who had all his trained abilities enabled.  I also dumped the Hammerer's hammer, disbanded the fortress guard, and leave the sheriff post open so now I completely ignore any mandate and nothing happens (although I will do a demand if it is easy enough).  The tax collector and hammerer don't even have rooms assigned to them.  Some of them still collect a hundred flutes but I let them have their silly fetishes since they're productive.

Note that the Queen Consort will, without editing, already do hauling jobs. She rocks.

So yes, nobles really need work.

[Jurph]

Nah, leave them in. You should have to choose between hammerings and potentially pissing off the Mountainhome.

This is not too far from realistic already.  Imagine you're Urist McMason, happily cranking out stone blocks in the quarry every day.  One day, you head to the dining hall for some beer and some guy in expensive cave spider silk clothes walks in looking like a short hirsute Hefner, and hollers "Hear ye all present!  I have been sent by the Mountainhome to direct your work, and I hereby decree that we shall begin producing billon mugs."  Everyone waits until he's gone and begins muttering -- doesn't he know there's no billon sitting around?  The outpost doesn't even have a smelter yet, and our metalsmiths are busy training up a platoon for fortress defense. 

The next day in the quarry, Nils turns to you and says "Oi, remember that warm stone we found when we were digging out a bedroom for him?"

You get a wicked look in your eye and say "Too right.  It's a menace to safety.  That wall could fail unexpectedly at any moment..."

[Demonic Gophers]

I am tired of seeing nobles get killed off by Drawf Fortress Players. The reason is because nobles have no point. Until nobles get beniefts, I propose this as a fix...

All nobles give drawves 'postive thoughts'. Since nobles are competent and heroic beings who do greatness, at least according to Drawves (if not, you know, to the player), the Drawves are happy to be led by such nobles, and will continue to be happy due to seeing the nobles do their duty in coming up with mandates.

There. Nobles made useful now. Since nobles make drawves happy, you are more likely to make them happy.

Down with mind control!  Death to the Slavers!

If this were implemented, I would have to kill all my nobles, on philosophical principles.

Nobles should be useful because of their actions, not because they compel working dwarves to worship them.

[Tormy]

I agree..all nobles must be useful in the future. Mandates would be fine in that case. Right now it's pointless to keep all of your nobles, since many of them are just annoying because of the mandates, but they ain't doing anything beneficial.
However, I am pretty sure that the noble system will be overhauled in time, so I am not worried to be honest. 

[Granite26]

Disagree. Nobles should be a challenge to appease, and if you fail they will exert their wrath upon your hapless dwarves.  To fix the problem, the penalty for killing nobles (or allowing them to die) needs to be increased.

One solution to this could be that after the economy starts up if they really want a bronze object they can just buy one instead of bugging me.

I could be crazy, but I've kinda gotten the impression that mandates come from a noble trying to claim and item of type X and not finding it.

[Tormy]

Disagree. Nobles should be a challenge to appease, and if you fail they will exert their wrath upon your hapless dwarves.  To fix the problem, the penalty for killing nobles (or allowing them to die) needs to be increased.

One solution to this could be that after the economy starts up if they really want a bronze object they can just buy one instead of bugging me.

I could be crazy, but I've kinda gotten the impression that mandates come from a noble trying to claim and item of type X and not finding it.

Eh, not to mention that why should they buy it, when they can get it for free via mandates. 

[Neonivek]

I agree..all nobles must be useful in the future. Mandates would be fine in that case. Right now it's pointless to keep all of your nobles, since many of them are just annoying because of the mandates, but they ain't doing anything beneficial.
However, I am pretty sure that the noble system will be overhauled in time, so I am not worried to be honest. 

One way some of you weren't expecting is that in the future, killing Nobles is a great way to make your people unhappy! Enjoy your mass tantrums!

here it is!

• Req291, NOBLE DEATH, (Future): Killing off nobles needs to have serious consequences. Once the counties (see Core28) are in, there could be revolts from the village if the count is popular. Other nobles could have angry relatives. Losing your law enforcement nobles could lead to more tantrums and other acts in large fortresses. Nobles should all be upset by the death of the tax collector. When a noble is buried, other dwarves could be sealed in the tomb.

Personally I am a big fan of the "Burrying other dwarves with them" scenario given my knowledge of the Egyptians! Heck I may kill off a few nobles for that effect.

[LegacyCWAL]

I could be crazy, but I've kinda gotten the impression that mandates come from a noble trying to claim and item of type X and not finding it.

You aren't crazy for thinking that, but it still isn't correct.  When a noble makes a mandate, they usually will claim at least one of what's made (at least if it's a trade good like a toy, craft, or mug), winding up with thirty of their usual mandate request laying on their bedroom floor.  They'll also claim whatever they damn well please, which is usually the same thing as their mandate and will also tend to wind up on their floor.  But there's plenty of things they do not, in fact, claim, and there's plenty of times there will be eleventy trillion of something laying around and they mandate more of it anyways.

An example that sticks in my mind is from my last fort, where the Duchess/Countess/Baroness Consort kept demanding 3 Rose Gold Items.  That's probably why it sticks in mind, since it turned her room magenta, but I digress.  I always just made goblets for her, and she wound up with what seemed like fifty laying around, but I still had a fuckton sitting beneath* my trade depot waiting for me to get sick of them and either export them or melt them.


*I put my trade goods stockpile one z-level down and directly underneath the trade depot so that all my stuff is at the top of the list and my dwarves have the shortest possible distance to walk:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

(etc.)
DEPOT
STUFF
(etc.)

Note: this is a side view


[Granite26]

hmm if it's not, maybe it should be... at least indirectly... (I've not had crazy amounts of trouble with insane demands, but I'm only 1 person)

[Tormy]

I agree..all nobles must be useful in the future. Mandates would be fine in that case. Right now it's pointless to keep all of your nobles, since many of them are just annoying because of the mandates, but they ain't doing anything beneficial.
However, I am pretty sure that the noble system will be overhauled in time, so I am not worried to be honest. 

One way some of you weren't expecting is that in the future, killing Nobles is a great way to make your people unhappy! Enjoy your mass tantrums!

here it is!

• Req291, NOBLE DEATH, (Future): Killing off nobles needs to have serious consequences. Once the counties (see Core28) are in, there could be revolts from the village if the count is popular. Other nobles could have angry relatives. Losing your law enforcement nobles could lead to more tantrums and other acts in large fortresses. Nobles should all be upset by the death of the tax collector. When a noble is buried, other dwarves could be sealed in the tomb.

Personally I am a big fan of the "Burrying other dwarves with them" scenario given my knowledge of the Egyptians! Heck I may kill off a few nobles for that effect.

Yes I know about that Req, and I like it. People won't kill off their nobles without having consequences at least.

[Gertack]

Yes I know about that Req, and I like it. People won't kill off their nobles without having consequences at least.

Given how useless nobles are currently, it'll probably end up being a choice between the lesser of two evils and so the nobles still burn.