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Author Topic: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good  (Read 6852 times)

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Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« on: December 04, 2008, 01:55:11 pm »

In the mythology of DF, it seems that there are some solid concepts "good" and "evil". This differs from the real world; in our universe, (at least from a secular perspective), these concepts are much more vague.
One might say that in the real world, the concepts are "what is good for the group" and "what is good for the one". All religions of any measure stress community and altruism, and it is true that such "good" behavior may not improve the survival of the individual, but certainly that of the group as whole.
Now here's where this gets interesting; is it not true that Goblins (and Kobolds and Ratmen and Frogmen and Elves even), in siege-ing your fortress, show self-sacrifice for the good of the whole group? Consider, your fortress suddenly appears deep into new territory, builds up huge supplies of goods and an army, and in future versions will be sending raiding parties out- a clear threat! Goblins take children for the benifit of the Dark Tower and to demoralize the enemy, and so on.
The fact is, an "evil" culture cannot survive- not because of outside influence by a "good" force, but simply from self-destruction.
What is needed is a structure that means that the chaotic structure of a goblin fortress is stable, and that will emergently produce the kind of action the goblins are famous for. In other words, we have to make a "good" that is Evil.

The Goblin's definition of Good- as in "Good for the group"- has to be something that:
-Is functional.
-Survives and encourages internal strife.
-Leads to invasions of neighbors.
-Is lead, at least in part, by Demons.

This means that an evil goblin's social structure will be:
-Without internal strife
-Promotes interculturaism
-Denies Demons, an athiest

I don't know what would work best to do this, but let's see what we can come up with.
I would say, most likely goblins reproduce rapidly- to counteract the rapid loss of goblins. Families do not exist- pairings are rarely mutual and even more rarely long-term. Infants are raised by the mother for a few months or years, then run in clannish gangs of which there are many in a set of dark towers.
These gangs are not necessarily related by blood, but they are tight-knit socially; if a goblin gets into a position of power, he will help his clan above others. This leads to internal strife as the various clans struggle for domination of the power structure. Presumably, assassins are always at work within the upper echelons. Indeed, for a goblin, it may be safer to be in the military, where one is respected and supported but without the authority or power to choose when and why to go to war, only how.
This constantly roiling power structure ensures that only the most subtle and skilled legislators can get power in the social order. The power structure, then, is the priestly and bureaucratic class or caste that is constantly assassinating competitors, superiors, successors, rival clan members, and bystanders; leaving only the most fit- strong, clever, or well-spoken enough to avoid assassination. The various leaders of this order decide whom to go to war against, where to build new towers, and who must be killed today. They do this at the vague direction of The Demon, who is the constant of the goblin social structure; always there, distantly directing the goblin followers via the byzantine Bureaucratic class. Most day-to-day and perhaps year-to-year management is handled by the bureaucrats, but the Demon holds the splintering structure together to prevent clans from annihilating each other and slowly directs the whole structure against whomever it is that is next on the Demon's list of targets.

The Evil goblin, of course, would be one that lets a weak leader remain, who abandons his clan once he comes to power, who trusts an outsider without obvious gain, and who ignores the will of the Demon.

Of course, this is all a pointless exercise. Toady One may post here stating that goblins have Evil DNA and that's that or something. My point is that the goblin structure, and for that matter any social structure, if developed well, will add to gameplay immensely by changing how you respond to the situations. Imagine that as a goblin overlord, you have a noble who wants a Blue Diamond Bed- and you only have to order him assassinated and one of the lower classes will come along and whack him. Wouldn't that be GREAT?
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G-Flex

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Re: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2008, 04:42:00 pm »

I don't know if goblins HAVE much of an idea of "good". Even if you get extremely objective, they're still pretty much amoral. They seem to be mischievous, not really care very much, and get easily manipulated by, say, demons.
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Re: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2008, 05:19:56 pm »

That was a cool read; I like your interpretation of goblin culture.  Personally, I always imagined the Demon as being a more direct influence on the goblins, such that only its rigid, tyrannical control allowed their culture to be viable or to rise above the level of petty tribal warfare; not in a bureaucratic fashion (I have a hard time imagining a goblin bureaucrat), but more in a "everyone who steps out of line gets sacrificed" sort of way.

Though your way probably makes more sense in the context of DF, where goblins have at least enough organization to build dark towers; my goblins would probably just live in old dwarf-mines or something.
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Re: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2008, 05:23:37 pm »

That was a cool read; I like your interpretation of goblin culture.  Personally, I always imagined the Demon as being a more direct influence on the goblins, such that only its rigid, tyrannical control allowed their culture to be viable or to rise above the level of petty tribal warfare; not in a bureaucratic fashion (I have a hard time imagining a goblin bureaucrat), but more in a "everyone who steps out of line gets sacrificed" sort of way.

Though your way probably makes more sense in the context of DF, where goblins have at least enough organization to build dark towers; my goblins would probably just live in old dwarf-mines or something.

Speaking of demons how do they even get into dark fortresses anyway?
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Re: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2008, 05:46:03 pm »

Perhaps Demons that
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
wander the surface world until they find a band of goblins to lord over, and then organizes them into a civilization.
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Re: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2008, 06:08:25 pm »

Dun dun dun

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Re: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2008, 07:00:42 pm »

I would say Goblins are sorts that would adhire to 'survival of the fittest'. They don't seem entirely bright, and their entire culture appears to revolve around the demons they follow. Inherently they could be motivated by their own instinct, rather than taking time to create moral frameworks for themselves. Do what the super duper demon says or get crispifried. Pretty simple.

I can see clans and groups coming into play by this estimate, though hierarchy would be more likely determined by the demon in whatever structure it deems most useful. Scuffling for position would probably be allowed, so long as you weren't foolish enough to get caught, or worse, get caught taking out a goblin the demon actually favored. All in all, their livelihood seems to revolve around serving the demon, so their goals and methods would probably depend on the demon in question. Kind of like a King with a grudge may lead you into war with elves far more readily, demons of particular spheres might go after those whose pantheons feature a deity dedicated to the opposite sphere... And might even spare followers of a deity with a similar sphere, if only to save them for last.
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Re: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2008, 07:27:43 pm »

Goblins have a rather complex social structure which isn't just Survival of the fittest

they seem to be a society that is keenly aware of their own situation who will not only bow to those more powerful then themselves who demonstrate a right of worship but who will take every strive possible to better themselves by introducing more powerful races into their society.

they seem to be innately Xenophobic given how they will take in child Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and other races but will instinctively kill and murder anyone in other cities. Though the Xenophobia could just be caution.

Goblins favor Squads given autonomy in increasingly large numbers prefering to overwhelm their enemies.

Goblins particularly favor squad based combat where all squads act autonomously.

So looking at what you chosen here is what I have to say that it deeply confuses me.

As for Goblin intelligence, the Goblins do demonstrate levels of intelligence that are clearly greater then all the other races but they suffer from inconsistancy. One Goblin could hold up objects that could smite armies while the guy next to him may only have a toothpick. When equipping armies however they seem to be fans of iron and leather armor which they are capable of getting in ever increasing numbers.

Their Dark Fortresses are a mystery in it of themselves. The amount of Obsideon they are composed of show a level of Magma harnessing never before seen.
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Re: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2008, 08:01:05 pm »

From what I see, Goblins worship and serve any nearby power, always trying to get on their good (or least bad) side. This often involved killing and/or robbing other goblins who are in the way of that. I can easily see childhood gangs, family clans and secret cults forming extensively with a lot of small scale infighting resulting in people getting stabbed.

They steal babies to get slave labour. The giving them equal rights thing is likely a bug. Goblins likely ought consider more slave raids and only use some of the population for body-part sculptures. The large amout of slave labour suggests a agrarian-military culture similar to Sparta where you have cruel overlords who train their whole lives to fight and kill with masses of opressed serfs who got killed whenever the boss felt like showing off how macho he is.

They should have a good number of well trained, well armed troops covered in heavy duty armour and of leatherclad lancers on beak dogs. Slave levies might be used in some goblins civs, though only with leather armour on foot with wood or copper weapons.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 08:04:12 pm by Grek »
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Re: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2008, 08:48:10 pm »

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Re: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2008, 10:46:26 pm »

From what I understand (Toady's original concept of Goblins being from that movie Laberinth apperantly) is that Goblins steal babies for the power they hold.

Since they obviously don't believe babies have magical powers (like they do in the movie) I can only assume they wish to raise these babies for their powers.

I mean, Humans are generally stronger then Goblins
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Re: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2008, 10:48:01 pm »

Why does everyone think he got the baby-snatching idea from Labyrinth?

Seriously! Unless he specifically mentioned it, that's the most ridiculous assumption. Isn't it a hell of a lot more likely that they happen to both have baby-snatching because that's what folkloric goblin types do?
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Re: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2008, 10:49:39 pm »

Why does everyone think he got the baby-snatching idea from Labyrinth?

Seriously! Unless he specifically mentioned it, that's the most ridiculous assumption. Isn't it a hell of a lot more likely that they happen to both have baby-snatching because that's what folkloric goblin types do?

HE SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED IT AND LINKED YOUTUBE!!!

That is a Hillarious "I still barely believe it is true" yelling.

I should also mention that there was this guy there who probably ALSO thought he was a goblin even though he was very overtly human. (He was also supperior to goblins)
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Re: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2008, 01:53:48 am »

Goblins aren't evil creatures. The demon's influence is powerful enough to corrupt the babies they snatch and their snatchers talk of liberating them. It's more like a cult
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Re: Functional Morality - Goblins and Good
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2008, 01:57:31 am »

HE SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED IT AND LINKED YOUTUBE!!!

That is a Hillarious "I still barely believe it is true" yelling.

I should also mention that there was this guy there who probably ALSO thought he was a goblin even though he was very overtly human. (He was also supperior to goblins)

Honestly, I never knew that he mentioned it. I've argued the point before and nobody bothered to say that, so I thought it was just some assumption they were making.
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