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[scribbler]

Now I've known SCA guys to make mead in their fridges, but doesn't alcohol take time to ferment? I mean shouldn't wine be aged and all that? Right now it's workshop mechanics, "Pass me that wrench, I'm gonna make a beer."
I'd like to see dwarves setting up kegs and letting them age, like plants need time to mature. Wine racks to be populated with choice vintages for the dwarven king's traders and slurpee cups of sewer brew for the human caravan guards, "That's good bass."
Eventually, I'd like to see the process continued to preserving meat and herbs, but for now I'll be happy not to see insta-beer. Maybe I'm wrong, but for some reason it's been bugging me. I think I just feel my dwarves deserve big ass kegs in the basement.

[Warlord255]

This would be interesting. It would also be interesting to see different drinks requiring different temperatures; for example, a special beer that can only be distilled by cooling the kegs at glacial temperatures, or another that has to be effectively "boiled" by sitting on warm stone, to add regional/seasonal environment fluff.

[JohnieRWilkins]

I mean shouldn't wine be aged and all that?

Not all wine can be aged. I'm sure that wine that can be made out of mushrooms can't get much better after sitting in a dry place for a bit, sort of like beer.

[Foa]

I mean shouldn't wine be aged and all that?

Not all wine can be aged. I'm sure that wine that can be made out of mushrooms can't get much better after sitting in a dry place for a bit, sort of like beer.

It looks like there's going to be varying effects of planted beverages in different stones/soils, at different temperatures, water levels, humidity, geography, and all of that other variable shit anyone can pull out of theirs asses, just to please the masses.

[Warlord255]

I mean shouldn't wine be aged and all that?

Not all wine can be aged. I'm sure that wine that can be made out of mushrooms can't get much better after sitting in a dry place for a bit, sort of like beer.

It looks like there's going to be varying effects of planted beverages in different stones/soils, at different temperatures, water levels, humidity, geography, and all of that other variable shit anyone can pull out of theirs asses, just to please the masses.

Well, the main thing is beer that has to settle for a while before being drinkable - no more insta-beer, as it were. Variable effects should be secondary and minimal bonuses at best.

[Foa]

I mean shouldn't wine be aged and all that?

Not all wine can be aged. I'm sure that wine that can be made out of mushrooms can't get much better after sitting in a dry place for a bit, sort of like beer.

It looks like there's going to be varying effects of planted beverages in different stones/soils, at different temperatures, water levels, humidity, geography, and all of that other variable shit anyone can pull out of theirs asses, just to please the masses.

Well, the main thing is beer that has to settle for a while before being drinkable - no more insta-beer, as it were. Variable effects should be secondary and minimal bonuses at best.

Cool Mead = :3 ?

Or does the planting in obsidian give it the task of rocks.

[scribbler]

After a certain depth underground the surface temperature has very little to do with inside. I recall seeing a documentary on Canadian diamond mines and they still had to ac the place.
Still (no pun intended) I was just thinking of the planning aspect. If the good stuff won't be available for at least 3 seasons... Anyway, booze has always been a popular trade good and well made alcohol, as opposed to MASH rotgut should go some distance towards helping when food trading is nerfed.

[Draco18s]

After a certain depth underground the surface temperature has very little to do with inside. I recall seeing a documentary on Canadian diamond mines and they still had to ac the place.

Enclosed environment => lack of ventilation => hot sweaty men working => excessive body heat => law of thermodynamics => Hot environment => hotter, sweatier men => whiners => AC installed => Refreshing.

[Footkerchief]

Yes, currently the job system doesn't allow for jobs that require waiting -- the laborer stays at the shop for the entire time, and once he leaves, the job is done.  But brewing should take longer, as should charcoal-making, and the laborer should be able to go do something else while the beer brews or the charcoal chars or whatever.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I see two methods for implementing this which I shall call 'in-workshop' and 'post-workshop'.

Under in-workshop a crafter brings the necessary reagents to the workshops and spends some time working on them.  At the conclusion of this brief work time the reagents are turned into an intermediate product which can not leave the workshop.  A timer will be started and at the conclusion the intermediate becomes the final product and can be removed from the workshop normally.  Depending on the nature of the workshop an intermediate product being in the workshop could block the start of a new work cycle.  Because the intermediate can not leave the workshop it is not listed under stockpile selector menus, in addition a workshop can not be disassembled until it is empty of intermediate products.  Charcoal making and bread baking would fall under this plan.

In a post-workshop scenario the same intermediate product is created from reagents at the conclusion of the crafting timer but the intermediate can immediately be removed from the workshop.  The intermediary product will still have a timer that starts at the point crafting is completed, upon reaching completion the product changes to the final state.  This will require the intermediary to be in the stockpile system so it can be moved and organized effectively.  Brewing of alcohol will be the main product using this system.

footkerchief:  Consider adding this to your reaction plans, I could see a few tags providing a lot of flexibility, [CRAFT_TIME] would determine the time the crafter must expend using units already used for [GROW_DUR] of plants.  [INTERMEDIATE_PRODUCT] would specify the name of the intermediate product and the time units needed for it to age/transform into the final product (limit of one intermediate or you might use some kind of ID matching system to correlate multiple intermediate and final products).  If no other tags are provided then a post-workshop system is used, but if [INTERMEDIATE_IN_WORKSHOP] is added then in-workshop rules are used, and if [INTERMEDIATE_BLOCKS_WORKSHOP] is added the additional effect of the intermediate's presence preventing a new round of work from starting.

[Footkerchief]

Under in-workshop a crafter brings the necessary reagents to the workshops and spends some time working on them.  At the conclusion of this brief work time the reagents are turned into an intermediate product which can not leave the workshop.  A timer will be started and at the conclusion the intermediate becomes the final product and can be removed from the workshop normally.  Depending on the nature of the workshop an intermediate product being in the workshop could block the start of a new work cycle.  Because the intermediate can not leave the workshop it is not listed under stockpile selector menus, in addition a workshop can not be disassembled until it is empty of intermediate products.  Charcoal making and bread baking would fall under this plan.

I like this idea.  Maybe bread-baking or charcoal-making could generate periodic "Tend oven" or "Tend furnace" jobs which only take a few seconds?  The cook/woodburner could get some other work done in between, but if the jobs are left undone, the bread can burn or the charcoal turns out shitty or whatever.

I'm not sure you really need an intermediate product for in-workshop jobs, though.  If the intermediates can't leave the workshop, they aren't important, I think.

In a post-workshop scenario the same intermediate product is created from reagents at the conclusion of the crafting timer but the intermediate can immediately be removed from the workshop.  The intermediary product will still have a timer that starts at the point crafting is completed, upon reaching completion the product changes to the final state.  This will require the intermediary to be in the stockpile system so it can be moved and organized effectively.  Brewing of alcohol will be the main product using this system.

You could take this a step further and, instead of using a strict timer, adapt the rot system so that the item can track its own state change.  Presumably there are some material attributes squirreled away somewhere in the source code that control susceptibility to rotting and what gets produced -- for example, the game knows how to turn raw fish into rotten fish.  Maybe this could be adapted to drinks so that dwarven beer wort (unfermented beer) "rots" into proper dwarven beer as long as it's stored under the right conditions.  You could also use it for pickling, the production of vinegar, etc.  It's hard to say how this would be implemented, though -- if rot products are currently part of hardcoded material definitions, then it would be easy, but who knows.

footkerchief:  Consider adding this to your reaction plans, I could see a few tags providing a lot of flexibility, [CRAFT_TIME] would determine the time the crafter must expend using units already used for [GROW_DUR] of plants.  [INTERMEDIATE_PRODUCT] would specify the name of the intermediate product and the time units needed for it to age/transform into the final product (limit of one intermediate or you might use some kind of ID matching system to correlate multiple intermediate and final products).  If no other tags are provided then a post-workshop system is used, but if [INTERMEDIATE_IN_WORKSHOP] is added then in-workshop rules are used, and if [INTERMEDIATE_BLOCKS_WORKSHOP] is added the additional effect of the intermediate's presence preventing a new round of work from starting.

Yeah, crafting time should be modifiable for reactions (although I'm not sure how the game currently handles the "more skill equals less time" thing).  Maybe for in-workshop jobs, the crafting time could refer to the initial "setup time" -- mixing the dough or whatever -- and then you could specify an additional periodic job with its own "crafting time": [PERIODIC:tend oven:5:10:2000], with 5 being the total number of periodic jobs generated, 10 being the time taken by the "tend oven" job, and 2000 being the interval between jobs (units are completely made up, of course).  This would require a generic way of handling failed jobs, but there's a whole thread on that already.

Basically I think your in-workshop/post-workshop idea is great, but I'm drawing a harder line between the two.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I like this idea.  Maybe bread-baking or charcoal-making could generate periodic "Tend oven" or "Tend furnace" jobs which only take a few seconds?  The cook/woodburner could get some other work done in between, but if the jobs are left undone, the bread can burn or the charcoal turns out shitty or whatever.

Their have been some periodic 'tending' tasks being involved in farming in combination with a lengthened growing duration but I'm hesitant to make them significant in workshop production.  The time scale of things like baking bread is so short it hard to see how meaningful work can get done in between the tending tasks.  It also might create some odd incentives ware the player locks the cook in the kitchen in order to keep the souffle from collapsing from lack of tending.  Though not opposed in principle I'd used tending sparingly in any workshop, short cooking tasks would be handled as they currently are (no wait), and longer ones like baking bread or making a stew would be prep once and wait once.

I'm not sure you really need an intermediate product for in-workshop jobs, though.  If the intermediates can't leave the workshop, they aren't important, I think.

Its really only so you can make sense of the workshops item list.  I didn't want reagents to just disappear and then the final product appear from nothing.  I had considered having the reagents just have a "waiting" label while their in this state but though it would be a little bit clearer for the player if they see "Baking bread" rather then "waiting flour" in the workshop list, it tells you both that the original reagents are past the point of no return and tells you what the product will be (assuming that intermediate name always takes the form of putting a verb in front of the final product name). 

[GlyphGryph]

On the DF time scale, having a wait for baking bread and the like would just be silly - the time a dwarf spends cooking it is already included in his time in the work shop and I don't see how adding additional wait times or playing around with that could end well at all.

On the other hand, beers and wines that "rot" to better beers and wines sounds great. Man, how nice would it be to set up a nice little store room at the beggining of your fort, put some stuff in it, and then crack it out for the 100th year anniversary. (I'm sure someone, somewhere, has lasted that long).

[scribbler]

Well, speaking as someone who has worked in kitchens and who makes his own bread, when you have downtime on bread, there are other things to do, especially if you're making meals for 200 hungry dwarves. When, for whatever reason, that's your only task, there's a lot of standing around, talking, and eating.
Beer and wine on the other hand, are not only monitored during the "rotting" stage, but efforts are made to maintain humidity and temperature, hence the sealed underground stores. Wine bottles are also periodically turned to prevent sedimentation.

[Warlord255]

On the DF time scale, having a wait for baking bread and the like would just be silly - the time a dwarf spends cooking it is already included in his time in the work shop and I don't see how adding additional wait times or playing around with that could end well at all.

On the other hand, beers and wines that "rot" to better beers and wines sounds great. Man, how nice would it be to set up a nice little store room at the beggining of your fort, put some stuff in it, and then crack it out for the 100th year anniversary. (I'm sure someone, somewhere, has lasted that long).

Another possibility is for quality to improve over time; however, given the brief, violent lives of dwarves and the constant anture of their alcohol consumption, this might be a bit much. Perhaps a "drank a (quality) (drink) aged for (number) years."