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[Dead Milkman]

Heyyas, been a long time since I posted (DF was still 2d back then).

I had some ideas concerning training.
1. Training dummies for non-archers. This would give other weapon users something to train with without needing to spar.
2. Supervised training. Basically a dwarf with a high combat skill could monitor another dwarf training and give pointers, which could increase the skill gain a bit. This could work both when using practice dummies or sparring partners.

Keep em short.
DM

[LegoLord]

Something to build on that:

Dwarves can only get up to a certain point just by training.  To become lords and elites, they need to gain experience in the field.

[Milskidasith]

Well that's a great way to F everything up. Honestly, you can get REALLY damn good at any kind of weapon use without actually having to kill somebody with it, so that's not only fake difficulty, but also utterly pointless.

Take any karate black belt. Ask how many people they had to kill to get as good as they were. The answer is probably zero. You can also get really damn good shooting a bow/crossbow without having to aim at a living creature (granted, having MOVING targets might help, so I can give you a point there, but still).

[LegoLord]

Well that's a great way to F everything up. Honestly, you can get REALLY damn good at any kind of weapon use without actually having to kill somebody with it, so that's not only fake difficulty, but also utterly pointless.

Take any karate black belt. Ask how many people they had to kill to get as good as they were. The answer is probably zero. You can also get really damn good shooting a bow/crossbow without having to aim at a living creature (granted, having MOVING targets might help, so I can give you a point there, but still).

I didn't say that they had to kill.  And anyway, black belt doesn't mean that you are capable of killing an entire squad of goblins with your bare hands.  In fact, you probably haven't been taught what would kill, except maybe in warnings.  You haven't fought anything trying to kill you, most likely.  If black belts were like that, it would not be legal to teach Karate to kids in the U.S.A.

If you've never practiced with moving targets, you won't be to good at that, either.  I have actually thought about this.  I wasn't just trying to come up with a way to make the game harder.

[profit]

Remember though being a marksman or a trajitzu master is not the same thing as being a seasoned veteran.

Some things can only be learned by killing... Like how to overpower that welling of bile that creeps up your throat when you turn an enemies head into a bright gray red spatter that covers the wall with your 50 cal sniper rifle.

 Or how to handle the pain of watching your friend trip a trap and crying as he has pungie sticks forced through his chest cavity and the only way of keeping the charlies from knowing your location is to "silence" him.

Basically becoming heartless and cruel is a learned art that cannot be taught inside of a training range and without it on a battle field you will never be an efficient killing machine no matter even if you can shoot a coin from 400 yards.

[LegoLord]

Precisely what I'm saying, profit.

[Milskidasith]

Are you kidding? I've taken Tae Kwon Do, and I knew, even from low level training, in what ways the strikes I was taught I could disarm (if possible. Obviously, the first warning was to get behind cover if somebody pulled a gun on you), stun, knock out, and kill somebody. The only thing being on a battlefield would teach you is how to deal with death, and we already have that (used to tragedy). Granted, it could be harder to get and have better effects, but being used to the battlefield doesn't make you any more technically proficient with a weapon (except the crossbow, and that's only due to movement, which could easily be solved if we could build gear operated rotating targets. Fun!).

[profit]

Are you kidding? I've taken Tae Kwon Do, and I knew, even from low level training, in what ways the strikes I was taught I could disarm (if possible. Obviously, the first warning was to get behind cover if somebody pulled a gun on you), stun, knock out, and kill somebody. The only thing being on a battlefield would teach you is how to deal with death, and we already have that (used to tragedy). Granted, it could be harder to get and have better effects, but being used to the battlefield doesn't make you any more technically proficient with a weapon (except the crossbow, and that's only due to movement, which could easily be solved if we could build gear operated rotating targets. Fun!).

Yeah but only experience on the battle field would teach you, that cork trees are the most likely spots for ambushes and that little patch of mud is quite likely a trigger mechanism for a claymore.

Or that the birds taking into flight means there probably is an enemy patrol that is obscured currently by the treeline.

There is a lot more to battlefields than just fighting.

[LegoLord]

Well, naturally, you are facing a lot of people trying to at least render you unconscious.  You either learn how to use your weapon and your enemies own characteristics to your advantage.  You may find certain techniques work better in certain situations that you just don't get in controlled training.  Not to mention profit's last post.

@ Milskidasith:  Are you sure learned how to kill with Tae Kwon Do during your training or just heard it from some other source around that time and made the connection?  Sometimes it seems like you've learned something, but just made a connection and forgot about it.  It's happened to me before.

[profit]

But in that same vein...

How come military is the only profession in DF that they can learn without doing... there should be a school/guild hall where you can send dwarfs to learn under masters at a craft and get better without say... mining a 1000x1000 floor completely out or making 19999 dwarven wine roasts.

[Milskidasith]

I agree with profit on the above.

And in fact, I think a "battlefield experience" stat might be useful. Higher stat means higher detection skill on ambushes, higher likelyhood to avoid traps (once we can invade OTHER locales), and better overall combat abilities while in live combat. However, it is perfectly reasonable to be able to train up to the highest level in weapons without actually having to kill somebody with it (legendary aside, and that's more a matter of the semantics about legendary than actual worth. But the arguments over legendary should be saved for another thread).

Just a guess, Profit: You were once involved in the military, right? Either that or you think about this a little bit too much.

[profit]

I worked quite a while with someone who was in nam.  He was pretty messed up still from his experience there, but it did teach me a lot about how war is not pretty,  and its actually pretty ugly.   I extrapolated his stories and applied them to "real world" military simulation.   I can also understand why legendary warriors cannot be returned to civilian work in dwarf fortess.

He is a surprisingly friendly guy, probably why the war left such deep scars on him.  But the things they have to do, like shoot children because they are probably carrying grenades and such just have always struck me as things you cant learn in any training camp unless your instructor, his mother and the school children next door are all trying to kill you in any way possible.

[Milskidasith]

Well, my dwarves don't seem to understand the concept of sparring. I have a mace lord who is missing a leg, a mace champion without an eye, and another mace lord without a lung. I also lost two mace lords to the dreaded broken spine and a mace royal guard to the dreaded "I'm not gonna rest off this injury, I'm just going to royal guard this spot" location.

Come to think of it, I really should stop using macedwarves. 

EDIT: The one mace lord has a mangled lung, he didn't entirely lose it. He also mangled his arm in that fight, but that healed.

[StrayCat]

(granted, having MOVING targets might help, so I can give you a point there, but still).

Archery practice on a moving target? Inflate a few balloons and tie 'em to logs in front of a hill. Simple stuff. In DF... Have'em practice on cats.

[TrombonistAndrew]

I didn't say that they had to kill.  And anyway, black belt doesn't mean that you are capable of killing an entire squad of goblins with your bare hands.  In fact, you probably haven't been taught what would kill, except maybe in warnings. 

No, martial arts black belts know a whole lot about exactly how to deliver killing blows. That's why they have to register themselves as deadly weapons in some places.