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[Neonivek]

How do you know that goblins practice the same "wrestling" dwarves do?

Currently they do for lack of context... but a more fleshed out martial arts system isn't going to appear until a least the combat arc

[Milskidasith]

I'

m assuming basic knowledge on the part of the bigger guy, such as if someone punches you in the gut you expect to be nailed in the chest etc... I've seen these fights happen multiple times in the club scene, I know every bouncer around here now and 80% of them fight like little girls, and they all had one thing in common. The lighter guy gets balled every single time. Why do you think there are class distinctions in professional fighting? Please cease this process of barfing your uninformed opinion all over the internet.

Class distinctions in professional fighting? That's masters, or at least well trained, people fighting against other well trained people. And to the bouncer thing: If we are talking about bar fights, I highly doubt we have masters in there. That sounds more like a novice dwarf wrestler trying to beat up a dabbling human wrestler: that one point in size is more important than a little skill. Besides, aren't bouncers usually trained to NOT get violent due to the lawsuits? I'm sorry, but I really don't think the "club scene" is where you are going to find a bunch of martial arts masters hanging out to beat up people for an accurate representation of what I said.

Reading comprehension is severely lacking in your department. The quote was "Sure you can probably get someone in a perfect arm bar given enough time on the ground, but try going for it on a boxer and tell me how well that goes." In other words, try getting a boxer in a full arm bar from the standing position by any means you want to and you will be very disappointed.

So you are saying that people can't fight against a master at their martial arts skill. Even if I didn't fully catch your meaning, I still don't see how this applies to street experience being worth more than actual skill, since all you are talking about is fighting masters or well trained people.

I wasn't arguing against Dwarven combat tactics, I was arguing for size differences playing a role and the skill of countering combat styles outside of your discipline. I'm sure Muay Thai dwarves aren't specifically skilled on the topic of how to directly stop Jujitsu goblins.

Size differences already do play a role... Increased size gives increased damage, increased health, and a higher limit on how much blood the creature can lose. To the second part, how do you know all dwarf wrestlers use the same style? They could all practice different styles, and while yes, gobbos could do things differently, they are still humanoid so the same basic principles of a style of fighting should be able to apply. And if gobbos did do things differently, that's what my 1/4th damage VIA combat experience is about.

How do you know that goblins practice the same "wrestling" dwarves do?

I've already responded to that: We don't. We also don't know if they don't practice the same wrestling. Anyway, wrestling is getting split up into multiple skills fairly soon, so this point is probably going to be moot by Word of Toad.

[JohnieRWilkins]

Class distinctions in professional fighting? That's masters, or at least well trained, people fighting against other well trained people.

Not necessarily. A novice light heavyweight will be able to demolish a lightweight grandmaster titleholder. The lightweight won't be able to move the guy at all and any wrestling move he attempts will fail miserably. It's like bringing a .50cal gun to a tank fight.

The thing is, many lightweights think they are the shit because they have a black belt in _____. Of course it doesn't take them too long to realize that size really DOES matter in a fight, and it matters very much. As far as I'm concerned, you are one of the people yet to realize this. Get yourself in fight with someone bigger on purpose and post a video on youtube.

Besides, aren't bouncers usually trained to NOT get violent due to the lawsuits?

Which is why there is always a spot without video cameras in a club.

And to the bouncer thing: If we are talking about bar fights, I highly doubt we have masters in there. That sounds more like a novice dwarf wrestler trying to beat up a dabbling human wrestler: that one point in size is more important than a little skill.

I'm sorry, but I really don't think the "club scene" is where you are going to find a bunch of martial arts masters hanging out to beat up people for an accurate representation of what I said.

You'd be very surprised at the abilities of the people in NYC.

So you are saying that people can't fight against a master at their martial arts skill. Even if I didn't fully catch your meaning, I still don't see how this applies to street experience being worth more than actual skill, since all you are talking about is fighting masters or well trained people.

Let me rephrase that. I'm saying that being a master at your skill doesn't make you the master at fighting someone else of another skill. So in essense, if you'd want to make a more in-depth system, you'd have counter-jujitsu and counter-taekwondo skills. A legendary Muay Thai user that has proficient counter-taekwondo skills will wreck a legendary taekwondo user, providing that size is equal. (Dwarf vs huminz will be more complicated because dwarf has damblock +1 on the human)

[anyar]

Class distinctions in professional fighting? That's masters, or at least well trained, people fighting against other well trained people.

Not necessarily. A novice light heavyweight will be able to demolish a lightweight grandmaster titleholder. The lightweight won't be able to move the guy at all and any wrestling move he attempts will fail miserably. It's like bringing a .50cal gun to a tank fight.

I really doubt this. There are a lot of Muay Thai champions that will give up 10-20 pounds to their opponent and win or make a competitive fight. Light heavy to lightweight (~40 pounds?) is a lot, but I think the quality of the fighter matters more.

[Milskidasith]

Not necessarily. A novice light heavyweight will be able to demolish a lightweight grandmaster titleholder. The lightweight won't be able to move the guy at all and any wrestling move he attempts will fail miserably. It's like bringing a .50cal gun to a tank fight.

Are we talking about boxing, still, or something else? I didn't know boxing had any kind of wrestling skill implied. Anyway, it depends on your definition of novice. Are we talking about novice, as in a low ranked professional, or novice, like somebody who fights at the local gym? Because if we are talking about pro boxers, I doubt any of them are below what would be, in DF,  professional skill, and from there weight would matter in such close skill levels.  If you really think you could get a local nobody to beat up a champion, though, that's pretty deluded. As for the 50.cal gun to the tank fight thing... aren't .50cal's only used as anti armor guns anyway? 

The thing is, many lightweights think they are the shit because they have a black belt in _____. Of course it doesn't take them too long to realize that size really DOES matter in a fight, and it matters very much. As far as I'm concerned, you are one of the people yet to realize this. Get yourself in fight with someone bigger on purpose and post a video on youtube.

First off, I'm not a master. At all. I've studied Tae Kwon Do for a while (although I'm not doing it now) but I didn't get into too much of the practical stuff. Anyway, size will never be a substitute for skill, especially at higher levels, where, I've heard, you are taught techniques to bunch your muscles together in such a way that blows will have almost no impact on you no matter your opponents size. Especially with martial arts techniques that are specifically for larger opponents (judo, anybody) and the fact that a major facet of martial arts is to not only know how to fight, but also how to get around your bodies natural unconcious limiters on how much of your strength you use, size starts to matter less and less.

Let me rephrase that. I'm saying that being a master at your skill doesn't make you the master at fighting someone else of another skill. So in essense, if you'd want to make a more in-depth system, you'd have counter-jujitsu and counter-taekwondo skills. A legendary Muay Thai user that has proficient counter-taekwondo skills will wreck a legendary taekwondo user, providing that size is equal. (Dwarf vs huminz will be more complicated because dwarf has damblock +1 on the human)

That is interesting, actually. Of course, to be even more in depth, you would, instead of having "counter-X" skills, just figure out which martial arts styles lend themselves to beating other martial arts styles.

[JohnieRWilkins]

I really doubt this. There are a lot of Muay Thai champions that will give up 10-20 pounds to their opponent and win or make a competitive fight. Light heavy to lightweight (~40 pounds?) is a lot, but I think the quality of the fighter matters more.

Muay Thai is probably the only exception to this rule as fighting with legs is usually better in that sort of situation. Even though you can't move the opponent using your arms and body mass, you can still potentially cause some damage with a well-placed kick. When you get in a wrestling situation though, if the guy can control you with one arm using his larger core muscles, (remember the 40 pound difference?) you're balled no matter what you attempt.

All of these martial artists rely on their ability to at least gain some control over their opponents bodypart. I totally see the hilarity in pitting a malnourished Chinese monk against a plate armor clad European knight in a fisticuff battle though, and I hope you do too.

[Granite26]

As for the 50.cal gun to the tank fight thing... aren't .50cal's only used as anti armor guns anyway? 

I've heard, you are taught techniques to bunch your muscles together in such a way that blows will have almost no impact on you no matter your opponents size.

1:  Sorta but not really.  standard .50 cal is used for heavy calibre pistols (Dessert Eagle) and for anti-vehicle sniper weapons  (Shoots through engine blocks), amond other things.  There's probably some heavy antiarmour .50 cal rounds, but they are likely special use.  (The Avenger on an A10 is 30mm, or about 1.2 inch)

2:  Are you drinking the koolaid, or what?

[Milskidasith]

Yes, but malnourished implies that he has so little food his muscles have degenerated and the fact his opponent is wearing armor limits his ability to use any kind of blow that could knock the opponent out.

And to the post about me drinking the koolaid: No. There really are ways to block that significantly lower the impact of the opponents punch. It will still hurt, but it will hurt less than just throwing your arm in front of the punch.

[JohnieRWilkins]

1:  Sorta but not really.  standard .50 cal is used for heavy calibre pistols (Dessert Eagle) and for anti-vehicle sniper weapons  (Shoots through engine blocks), amond other things.  There's probably some heavy antiarmour .50 cal rounds, but they are likely special use.  (The Avenger on an A10 is 30mm, or about 1.2 inch)

1) "Standard" .50cal is .50bmg. (12.7x99mm) The one that the gun that shall not be mentioned by me shoots is .50AE. (12.7x33mm) Each round will cost you its weight in pure iridium.
2) There isn't a single .50cal round that can penetrate any modern tank armor.
3) Antimaterial rifles are designed to be able to bring down helicopters and softer targets, not battletanks. Any tank that can be brought down by a rifle round isn't a tank by definition.

2:  Are you drinking the koolaid, or what?

It is very apparent that he is.

Martial arts are never as impressive as most people make them sound to be, you can only get so good at something and after that gains are marginal. The best way to get better at fighting is to get stronger, and the only way to get stronger is to gain more muscle - and by extention, more mass.

[Granite26]

devil's in the details...

or:  Frame your argument before making sweeping statements...

[JohnieRWilkins]

devil's in the details...

or:  Frame your argument before making sweeping statements...

.55=!= .50 (12.7vs13.97 is a very large difference)

You would've had a case if I said .6cal. Also, ww2 tanks are considered more like APCs by today's standards. (no sloping armor, poor quality steel, weak powerplants etc...)

[Granite26]

The chinese rebarreled it for .50 and the article mentions the browning .50 being a better solution a lot...  Like I said, frame the arguments.

It's not really important, it's actually a better argument that way.  With a bad tank driver and a genius infantry, you could probably take out a take with armourpiercing .50 rounds... eventually.

[JohnieRWilkins]

You are completely wrong on all accounts.

Wiki entry:

# China - some eventually rechambered for .50BMG rounds and used experimentally as sniper rifles

Key words: sniper rifle

No you can't destroy a tank with a .50cal rifle. You can blow off the optics on a tank with any weapon, but that won't stop it. The most you can do is to use the rifle as a crowbar and pry off the treads, but that won't defeat any modern tank as they are designed to travel for a little bit without treads.

[Neonivek]

You forgot that you can shoot a tank enough that the bullets clog up the tracks or bury it.

It could also ruin the paint job of the tank making the owners angry

[andrei901]

small on topic bit: weapon mastery should stay the same, but battlefield experience could provide a damage/defence/dodge/evade multiplier.

Large off topic bit: weight matters in a fight. You can be a judo black belt (judo is designed against big people), but if someone picks you up by the collar of your shirt and slams you against a wall, you're f'ed up the butt. (especially if you're in prison).
Next, a .50 cal round isn't gonna do anything to a tank. Armor piercing or not, it's not gonna even dent a tank. A .50 cal round won't even pierce the engine block of a standard car. If you go up against a tank and you don't have an explosive or a firebomb, you would do better to run.