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Author Topic: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF  (Read 2305 times)

AlienChickenPie

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2008, 10:12:15 am »

This is what I have in mind:
Urist McSoapyforges can haul and not much more. He can't afford a room and decent food, so he sleeps in the barracks (or squats in a vacant room) and eats the cheapest foods (or steals from the stockpiles).
The lousy food and board he enjoys, along with the fact that he has to steal (and any punishment he might endure) make him unhappy and angry at "the establishment" specifically. When he's ready to blow, he calls for rebellion, possibly drawing in unhappy dwarves. The rebels try to kill the tax collector and all the ruling nobles starting with the baron and going up. If they succeed in killing them despite the fortress guard's best efforts, they become the rulers of the fort and abolish the economy.
These dwarves become the rulers of the civ, duchy, county or barony, respectively. If the rule the civ, they're free to do whatever they want, but if they rule the duchy, county or barony, the takeover has a chance of generating a reaction at the civ, duchy or county level, respectively, where the respective ruler arrives with an attack force intent on killing the rebels and reinstating order as they see it. Also, the abolition of the economy could trigger unhappiness by richer dwarves, resulting in a counterrevolutionary movement that tries to seize power and reinstate order on its own.
Ways of avoiding the Urist Revolution would have to revolve around making sure all your dwarves get enough money. The main ways to do that would be changing the wages paid for each job, starting large public works projects for the underpaid professions and teaching underpaid dwarves more professions. Changing pay scales would have the cost of mildly angering dwarves with lower paying jobs than those you promote.
Another important thing would be a way for dwarves to show their unhappiness before they rebel. The game already allows dwarves to complain, but AFAIK this is not logged anywhere. There should be a complaint screen where the latest complains, as well as recurring complaints, are listed. This would allow you to find problems before it's too late.
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Ascii Kid

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2008, 10:47:23 am »

Well, as a sudjestion to extend the already nifty idea, what if protests occured when, say, 7 or 5 or whatehaveyou dwarves of a particular job-type become upset, which precede the uprising.  Cut to a negotiation screen similar to the trade screen where job values are bargained over.  These workers form a union group that you have to renegotiate with on some sort of contractual basis. 
Mind you the idea of an organized complaint screen is a good one, but I'd like to see some sort of in game indications aswell. 
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"...you'll have you live with your GRANDmother and pick beans!"
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scribbler

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2008, 02:32:47 pm »

And the rebellious dwarves, now getting what they want, become just like the ex-leaders, just like in Animal Farm.
Now, can we have multiple warring factions on the same map? Seceding groups sealing off corridors and hoarding resources?
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End the slaughter of dorf kittens!
No self respecting beard wants to wear his pet as clothing! Dorfs need population control for pets and bad thoughts from products made from the animals they choose to bond with.
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Inquisitor Saturn

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2008, 02:57:10 pm »

Maybe there could be dwarven welfare?
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scribbler

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2008, 03:00:06 pm »

Maybe there could be dwarven welfare?
I'd think that dwarves would be highly disturbed that humans allow their own to starve and freeze in the streets. No dwarf ever goes hungry if there's food! We even give our insane people jobs as tantrumers and nobles!
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End the slaughter of dorf kittens!
No self respecting beard wants to wear his pet as clothing! Dorfs need population control for pets and bad thoughts from products made from the animals they choose to bond with.
---------
"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
-Albert Schweitzer

Ascii Kid

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2008, 08:04:22 pm »

Yeah, but do you think Urist is really gonna go buy food with that money?  PLease, he's gonna leave his kids at some party and go get drunk!  Social Asssistance be damned!  =->
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"...you'll have you live with your GRANDmother and pick beans!"
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Aquillion

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2008, 09:14:39 pm »

I know DF economy is but a shadow of its projected self, but the problems that often come up have a lot to do with an impoverished underclass that can't afford anything, and that's an issue that would probably be the problem with any dwarven version of pure (except for legendaries) capitalism.
It's not actually any form of capitalism (prices are partially set by nobles, not by supply and demand.)

There was a thread about it a while back, and the general agreement was that the economy is actually something like a royal colony sort of thing -- the mountain and most of the things in it are owned by the king, who sells / rents them to dwarves.
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Pilsu

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2008, 10:25:52 pm »

Every single last one of my forts would collapse if you implemented rebellions for scarcity of work. There simply isn't a whole lot to do for all of those dwarves and when the rebellion fails, many people die and the dwarves start a tantrum spiral. Either that or you just lose your best artisans because they didn't have anything to do that month

Only way around it would be to have 100+ Pump Operators. Or clothers/glassmakers and any professions those support since their supplies are practically infinite. Anyone else would be screwed unless the player carefully micromanages the bastards
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Granite26

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2008, 09:29:00 am »

Every single last one of my forts would collapse if you implemented rebellions for scarcity of work. There simply isn't a whole lot to do for all of those dwarves and when the rebellion fails, many people die and the dwarves start a tantrum spiral. Either that or you just lose your best artisans because they didn't have anything to do that month

Only way around it would be to have 100+ Pump Operators. Or clothers/glassmakers and any professions those support since their supplies are practically infinite. Anyone else would be screwed unless the player carefully micromanages the bastards

Seriously... It occurs to me that this suggestion is "Hey, noble demands are too hard, and it ends up with them killing my workers.  It'd be cool if the peasants killed them and started making their own demands instead."

scribbler

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2008, 10:13:54 am »

And?  ;D
Revolution is a common transition between representative and absolute governments. On the other hand democracy doesn't seem too dwarvy. I am however working on a (non-DF) story where the dwarves have a roman senate type government.
Imagine, instead of a whiney count, you have an increasing number of whiney senators, elected from your important tradesmen who now need time to do senate things. Ooo, and a big amphitheater and D-SPAN.... Erm, where was I? :)
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End the slaughter of dorf kittens!
No self respecting beard wants to wear his pet as clothing! Dorfs need population control for pets and bad thoughts from products made from the animals they choose to bond with.
---------
"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
-Albert Schweitzer

Ascii Kid

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2008, 03:21:17 pm »

I don
t really think of it as "Nobles are mean" so much as "Rebellions would be cool" and for twho are afraid of their forts dying out, you could just have it set as an option along with rent and weather
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"...you'll have you live with your GRANDmother and pick beans!"
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scribbler

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2008, 04:07:42 pm »

But total economic collapse is fun! Just ask my boss. >:) <= So need an big evil grin
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End the slaughter of dorf kittens!
No self respecting beard wants to wear his pet as clothing! Dorfs need population control for pets and bad thoughts from products made from the animals they choose to bond with.
---------
"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
-Albert Schweitzer

TrombonistAndrew

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2008, 05:25:03 am »

All this stuff is fascinating, but consider dwarven society: from what I understand, dwarves of a colony or clan or whatever consider themselves family, at least in a lot of literature. I find it more likely that humans would try a violent overthrow; dwarves should be more likely to just leave rather than to commit murders.
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Ascii Kid

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2008, 05:31:34 am »

That's a good point, and maybe the violent over-throw situation could be better handled using an individual who has a grudge against a leader-figure might, some day, sneak into their room and murder them.  That would be a much more up-close-and-personal style, kind of add a tradgic, shakespearian flavour to the whole affair.
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"...you'll have you live with your GRANDmother and pick beans!"
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Manchild

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Re: Shades of gray between utter capitalism and utter communism in DF
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2008, 06:38:09 am »

I don
t really think of it as "Nobles are mean" so much as "Rebellions would be cool" and for twho are afraid of their forts dying out, you could just have it set as an option along with rent and weather



Rent is a setting?

the stuff you learn.....


but this would be a god idea IF it could be acomplished.....

how about someone makes it into a game addon....or sumtin like tweak?
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