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[E. Albright]

the mobile armory "issue" (personally, I don't see it as a problem).

It is a problem though. You can put on security uniforms with sidearms equipped, walk all the way to the back of a CEO mansion, cause an alarm, then suddenly pull assault rifles and heavy body armor out of thin air to shoot your way out. Even worse, under the current system you can do this in a sweatshop when starkers.

At the absolute very least, each item stored in hammerspace should impose a location-dependent (possibly also outfit-dependent) stealth/disguise penalty; eyebrows would be raised higher at a group of guards carrying three large duffel bags in a mansion than in a factory, to say nothing of how high they'd be raised at a group of naked "garment workers" doing so in a sweatshop.

[beorn080]

Alright, heres how you can fix that without losing hammerspace. You can wear 2 layers of clothing at a slight disguise penalty depending on whats worn. For instance, you can wear a security uniform over body armor since IIRC body armor is just a vest without a penalty. However trying to wear heavy body armor under the security uniform would cause a slight penalty because such excessive protection is a bit excessive even for security. Some outfits would be outerwear like trenchcoats and bunker gear, which couldn't be worn under clothes but concealed anything under them. Others like bondage gear and heavy body armor would be formfitting and would go under any non formfitting armor. So maybe three layers, outerwear, clothing, formfitting.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

To be honest, I don't much like my idea, so I'm perfectly open to alternatives.

Another thought, modifying E. Albright's suggestion about location-dependent penalties for items in hammerspace. Suppose that each item has a bulk value (0 for things like money and documents, 1 or more for things like guns and stolen equipment), and depending on the total bulk the squad is hauling around, you get a suspicion penalty. This could be communicated to the player through emotes about the squad carrying duffel bags as it moves from tile to tile through the level. When picking things up, you'd get messages about shoving them into your duffel bags. You could add an extra tier where the squad starts moving piles of stuff around in a push cart, with an associated increase in the detection penalty. Thus, we remove the hammerspace believability and realism issue by removing hammerspace entirely, replacing it with mention of physical storage objects the squad is towing around, tied to a detection penalty (no combat penalties or anything, just can't sneak around). For some locations, such as prisons, bags would have to be searched to be allowed in peacefully.

[E. Albright]

Aye, I meant to bring up bulk in my above suggestion. D'oh! I'd largely agree with what you outline. In a perfect world I'd still prefer to see some notion that some outfits are more or less conspicuous with bulky junk; people with dollies in work clothes in an apartment building aren't going to be as conspicuous as people in expensive dresses with dollies in... well... pretty much anywhere. Also, location should matter; a hand truck is going to stand out in a gentleman's club regardless of what's on it, while in a factory I'd expect its conspicuousness to be more tied to its (presumably concealed) contents.

But that's in a perfect world. I'd be quite pleased to just see a bulk penalty added (which presumably would also affect how hard it is to get something out; if you're resorting to carts and bags, you're not going to be able to instantly get out that AK 47, but you should have no problem whipping out the knife you tucked into your boot).

[Rezan]

If you were to implement dufflebags and so forth, would it not be prudent to introduce or combine a concealment skill into one of the previously existing skills? Perhaps disguise and stealth could, together, decide how suspicious something is, and whether it is detected during a search (obviously very high levels of the two would be necessary for this, but still, I'd like the opportunity to smuggle things through "checkpoints")?

I very much like the thought of a sidearm, and it seems only logical that most weapons, when held, cause suspicion (though, a person wearing a suitable uniform during the suitable times {meaning conservative times where walking around with a gun is reasonably common} would be able to carry openly). Perhaps if you have nothing in your primary, you automatically switch your secondary to your primary when attacked?

[mainiac]

To be honest, I don't much like my idea, so I'm perfectly open to alternatives.

Another thought, modifying E. Albright's suggestion about location-dependent penalties for items in hammerspace. Suppose that each item has a bulk value (0 for things like money and documents, 1 or more for things like guns and stolen equipment), and depending on the total bulk the squad is hauling around, you get a suspicion penalty. This could be communicated to the player through emotes about the squad carrying duffel bags as it moves from tile to tile through the level. When picking things up, you'd get messages about shoving them into your duffel bags. You could add an extra tier where the squad starts moving piles of stuff around in a push cart, with an associated increase in the detection penalty. Thus, we remove the hammerspace believability and realism issue by removing hammerspace entirely, replacing it with mention of physical storage objects the squad is towing around, tied to a detection penalty (no combat penalties or anything, just can't sneak around). For some locations, such as prisons, bags would have to be searched to be allowed in peacefully.

I like this but I think it requires the ability to drop items.

[EuchreJack]

To circumvent the "Don't want mobile armory" issue, and the "really need to loot guns off dead Conservative Swine" issues, just disallow hammerspace when a squad is going to a site, then allow it again.  It's the most simple method.  You can also limit hammerspace as "unretrievable on site", so those 20 SMGs you picked off the cops can be collected but not used.

I'm not really for the reduction of price for firearms.  Course, in a Arch-Conservative society, you probably get a free AK-47 when you open a bank account, and a free Anti-Tank Missile system when you buy a car.  So we can all sleep easier.

[Squeegy]

If you get rid of hammerspace, make it toggleable. I love hammerspace, my entire liberal agenda would fall apart without it.

[Yanlin]

I like what John proposed. That would work best. But there needs to be a penalty for carrying those in the way that they could fall out. If they fall out, you could pull a fast one and try and grab it without anyone noticing but the chances for that are ULTRA slim. Unless you have a high stealth skill and agility stat.

And only if nobody is in your current square you could actually pull this off.

Depending on what falls out, the situation will adjust.

But first and formost we gotta get rid of hammerspace. I'm sick of pulling out hammers out of it.

[penguinofhonor]

I like the duffel bags/dollies idea. You can stick stuff in hammerspace, but it gives you suspicion penalties.

And I like Yanlin's "stuff falling out" suggestion, so stealthy and fast liberals can stop people from noticing that your duffel bags are full to bursting with AK47s.

[Squeegy]

Also you could just remove hammerspace and give armor pockets. Trenchcoats would have the most, storing maybe up to 10 items, while things like Body Armor would have 2 and Tactical SWAT Armor have 3, etc.

[Cosmonot]

To be honest, I don't much like my idea, so I'm perfectly open to alternatives.

Another thought, modifying E. Albright's suggestion about location-dependent penalties for items in hammerspace. Suppose that each item has a bulk value (0 for things like money and documents, 1 or more for things like guns and stolen equipment), and depending on the total bulk the squad is hauling around, you get a suspicion penalty. This could be communicated to the player through emotes about the squad carrying duffel bags as it moves from tile to tile through the level. When picking things up, you'd get messages about shoving them into your duffel bags. You could add an extra tier where the squad starts moving piles of stuff around in a push cart, with an associated increase in the detection penalty. Thus, we remove the hammerspace believability and realism issue by removing hammerspace entirely, replacing it with mention of physical storage objects the squad is towing around, tied to a detection penalty (no combat penalties or anything, just can't sneak around). For some locations, such as prisons, bags would have to be searched to be allowed in peacefully.

I don't like this idea much, because I don't think it should be possible to sneak around while carrying lots of weapons or stolen goods no matter how stealthy you are. Doing this makes the weaker-but-stealthy weapons (like pistols) a lot more valuable.

As far as weapon slots go, I think everyone should have a secondary weapon slot that they can switch to freely, can contain any weapon, and that each weapon is hidden if currently possible or visible if not. Having a bunch of special rules regarding weapon slots and concealment is unnecessarily confusing. There could be a one-turn delay for switching weapons if micromanaging the system to bypass reloading is distasteful.

I'd like the removal of squad inventories except for a temporary, limited hammerspace available during site missions. The on-site inventory could contain up to 1*number of liberals on site large items, and an infinite number of smaller items (possibly with a few bonus slots for things like trenchcoats). The only other use of squad inventories I can recall offhand is moving items between safehouses and the pawn shop, which could be replaced by creating a "transfer items" activity and allowing the player to sell anything in the safehouse at the pawn shop. Items bought from stores/the pawn shop would appear back at the safehouse if the liberal making the purchases doesn't take the item.