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[Squeegy]

Some suggestions:

• Make it so that when being raided, you can wear the correct clothes and walk past the bastards. Need to roll disguise check?
• An Elite Liberal (1,000 juice) can be "rehabilitated and freed" if you give up during a siege. Fix this?

[E. Albright]

• An Elite Liberal (1,000 juice) can be "rehabilitated and freed" if you give up during a siege. Fix this?

Juice or no juice, the brainwashed are always vulnerable to being rehabilitated. This just means you can't ever have your B/W'd surrender. I'd hope this doesn't change.

[mainiac]

I believe you're supposed to have an opportunity to rescue the brainwashed before they are rehabilitated.

Maybe there should be a scale of how your treated which could be linked to societies view of sentencing as shown by the death penalty law.  At elite liberal, everyone is rehabilitated because the prison is a rehabilitation center.  At liberal, low juice and brainwashed are rehabilitated but anyone with more then 100 juice can resist.  At moderate just the brainwashed are rehabilitated.  In conservative societies though, they don't believe that stupid brainwashing excuse and treat you like anyone else.

[Rezan]

To me, logically, a high "heart" stat would be good for counteracting rehabilitation (and obviously an Elite Liberal would have less of a chance being rehabilitated than an activist) considering what you are trying to do is give the person more heart and less wisdom. Rehabilitation would do the opposite - break down heart and build up wisdom.

If the person has interrogation skill, wouldn't they be better at coping with the rehabilitation as well?

What I propose is that rather than having people instantly be rehabilitated, a new location is made. An actual "rehabilitation centre", in which your brainwash-ees are placed after being "liberated". The more time they spend in there, the higher their wisdom becomes, and the lower their heart. When their wisdom/heart difference is at a certain point, the person is rehabilitated and cannot be "re-liberated" by the Liberal Freedom Fighters.

[mainiac]

Linking rehabilitation to heart and wisdom seems wrong for me.  Firstly, it's bleeding heart liberals who argue for rehabilitation and pessimistically wise conservatives who say it won't work.  Secondly, I don't see why being wise (or conservatively inclined) makes a person easier to rehabilitate.  What matters more is the strength of the rehabilitatee's convictions and that's better judged by juice/noteriety.

[Rezan]

I'm just relating this to the interrogation. Personally I don't think "heart" or "wisdom" should have anything to do with your political alignment what so ever. In interrogation; your goal is to remove wisdom and add heart, and so I thought rehabilitation of this (for the conservatives) would be the opposite.

A better term for conservative rehabilitation would be "re-education" I guess.

[mainiac]

Maybe there could be two different systems?  Under conservatism, they try to brainwash sleepers back to conservatism, so it's the same as liberal interrogation but in reverse.  Under liberalism they try to psycho-analyze everyone's criminal tendencies and treat them with psychiatry and medication.  So juice, wisdom and social skills all allow you to resist treatment under liberal rehabilitation while persuasion (and thus heart) and interrogation allow you to hinder the diagnosis, meaning they won't rehabilitate you as effectively or they might even think you're cured and set you free.

[penguinofhonor]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it yet (though I may have skipped over it) but the exits of buildings have walls around them.

[The Moonlit Knight]

Make it so that when being raided, you can wear the correct clothes and walk past the bastards. Need to roll disguise check?

I thought this was already implemented? A while ago, I always wore Police Uniforms during raids and they never noticed me walking out the front door. I don't think this has been changed but then again I haven't had the opportunity to test it recently.

[E. Albright]

As far as "re-rehabilitating" the brainwashed, I will continue to advocate their automatically succumbing. It's not breaking them back to conservatism, it's re-establishing their original identity as a normal (albeit Conservative) member of society. That's a sight easier achieve than turning a normal (albeit Conservative) person into an unflinching violent terrorist (moreso if it's acting against their political ideology). It's not "we're going to beat you and drug you and crush your id", it's "hey, you were brainwashed by those evil (Liberal) bastard, but we rescued you from that, understand, and won't hold it against you... so you can go back to your old life (with a slap on the wrist or less)". Remember, these people didn't join LCS because they wanted to or believed in its ideals, they joined because their id was crushed and they were convinced it was what they should do (possibly ALL they could do).

Entirely setting rationalizations aside for a moment, auto-de-brainwashing is not without merit purely in terms of gameplay. It serves as some small balance for the fact that brainwashed members are "free" in terms of Leadership slots.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

Some suggestions:

• Make it so that when being raided, you can wear the correct clothes and walk past the bastards. Need to roll disguise check?

You have to Talk and then Bluff, but you -can- walk out of sieges. It's best to have someone with some high wisdom and disguise... I think I might detatch wisdom from bluffing and replace it charisma or persuasion or something.

Maybe there could be two different systems?  Under conservatism, they try to brainwash sleepers back to conservatism, so it's the same as liberal interrogation but in reverse.  Under liberalism they try to psycho-analyze everyone's criminal tendencies and treat them with psychiatry and medication.  So juice, wisdom and social skills all allow you to resist treatment under liberal rehabilitation while persuasion (and thus heart) and interrogation allow you to hinder the diagnosis, meaning they won't rehabilitate you as effectively or they might even think you're cured and set you free.

For rehabilitation, I like this basic idea. There's already a re-education camp for C+ society, we could make it function as a proper brainwashing camp, and have the prison also work for rehabilitation in Liberal society. I'm hesitant to add a second location, simply because for practical purposes, violent criminals would be sentenced to rehabilitation in prison. For abolition of prisons we could just rename that location to be a rehabilitation center.

Note that even if you have time to rescue brainwashed people before they're rehabilitated, I would still want to have them rehabilitated very quickly, regardless of juice level. They may be heroes for your cause, but their entire reasoning for fighting for you based on an illusion, and once they're out of your hands, that illusion can be quickly broken. I might just give you a month or so to bail them out of the police station, like people who are getting deported.

On the topic of Liberals converting your people, the new Elite Liberal police officers currently use Wisdom attacks to convert your people (first decreasing Juice, then increasing Wisdom, then converting you entirely). They don't turn Conservative, of course, they just abandon you still as Liberals, but the basic attack is identical. From my playing with it, this is pretty fair as gameplay goes -- but I figured I'd put that up for discussion since there's some objection to Liberals converting LCS members through Wisdom.

[The Moonlit Knight]

I think I might detatch wisdom from bluffing and replace it charisma or persuasion or something.

Please do? Charisma or Persuasion would make so much more sense. Having Wisdom add some kind of BONUS to it might be reasonable (easier to play yourself off as Conservative when you understand their opinions, yeah?), but having that as the main stat completely debilitates the skill.

[mainiac]

I don't like the idea of liberal cops giving you wisdom but it does seem kinda necessary.  Maybe liberal cops could just strip away your juice, and when it's all gone you surrender and are taken to the rehabilitation center.

[Servant Corps]

Well, I like the idea of liberal cops giving wisdom. According to the LCS, their position is the only LIBERAL position out there, and everyone who manages to deviate a little bit is CONSERVATIVE scum that must be ENLIGHTENED or brutally DEALT WITH. The game's mechanics are reflecting society within the eyes of the LCS, so it is better for "Wisdom" to represent any sort of devation from LCS' conception of right and wrong, and the Liberal Police obivously having lots of Wisdom because of the Police's refusal to 'teach' their Conservative brethen.

Oh, and put me down for "semi-instant-rehabilition". If it can take me 10 days to convert a guy, it should take them 10 days to cure it. Of course, in my view of the LCS setting, "rehabilition" is just another name for cult deprogramming, so meh.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

Wisdom attacks already strip away juice before affecting Wisdom, so if L+ Police went to being just damaging juice and conversion at 0, it would make them super powerful.