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[Random832]

Also, to all the other bleedover naysayers, let me remind you that at this setting I get to work with a 23x23 pixel square. That is REALLY not enough

Inaccurate - the area you get to work with is not, in fact, a square (at least, not one whose edges are parallel to te pixel grid)

(I don't have a problem with bleedover, but - just sayin')

[Mike Mayday]

I never said they are. But it's still a square. Okay, maybe I didn't describe its size properly. My main point is, it's much easier to use a 32px square if it's NOT rotated 45 degrees.

[Tormy]

Mike yet another question: What are the real benefits of the isometric view compared to the top-down view? Because frankly, I find the top-down view absolutely perfect for a game like DF..but I would like to hear your opinion.

[Mike Mayday]

Viewing terrain outside.
Perceiving multiple levels of a construction at the same time.
Easier to support bleedovers without making things unclear.

These are the three main reasons why I'd like to see it in the game.
There are probably others.

[scribbler]

Three ideas:
1) Something like 3Dwarf to atleast see all the multilevel stuff we're doing now.
2) Some kind of fake 3D set for now. (I hadn't even thought of Warlords graphics)
3) Has anyone thought of something based on Falcon's Eye?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Footkerchief]

uhhh... and what're Z-disconnects?

My bad, I made up a term.  I mean how when you're switching between levels, and you have, say, one wall corner right on top of another, the top of the bottom tile won't "connect" with the bottom of the top tile, as it would in isometric.  It could look a little disorienting, though I can't say for sure without seeing it in action.

uhhh... and what're Z-disconnects?

plus a whole bunch of headaches from tile-centric concepts like engravings, which don't translate well to any 3D or pseudo-3D projection.

In this case we could resort to the horrid thing that is bicubic filtering (and rotation and scaling). But if you can think of any other tile-centric problems please mention them, some might be harder to fix.

Yeah, I can't think of any besides engravings off the top of my head.  Writing a separate filter for each of the wall types would be annoying, but not impossible.

[Mike Mayday]

1) Something like 3Dwarf to atleast see all the multilevel stuff we're doing now.

And why not just use 3Dwarf? It's perfect enough for just seeing stuff.

2) Some kind of fake 3D set for now. (I hadn't even thought of Warlords graphics)

Please expand on this as I don't even know what you mean by fake 3D.

3) Has anyone thought of something based on Falcon's Eye?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yes, it has been brought up in every thread regarding graphics along with the multiple issues it presents. I'm not sure what you mean by BASING on it though. When we talk about isometric graphics (different from cavalier or 3/4 topdown as in Warlords) we mean something similar to Falcon's eye.

Footker: oh snap, I see what you mean about the disconnects. Yeah, this can be a real problem, I'll look into it.

[scribbler]

And why not just use 3Dwarf? It's perfect enough for just seeing stuff.

It's not nearly as pretty as your mock ups.
Also, for those who like to program, because they can.

Please expand on this as I don't even know what you mean by fake 3D.

Something like in the mockups. I know there's a Nintendo set that's 3/4 topdown and I know the restraints of most people's systems would prevent sufficiently large icons for cavalier. But a basic set using what we have, as opposed to what we wish we had.
It was just a thought. If we had some truly nice sets, Toady may be encouraged to separate off more graphics from text and if we had larger sets he might be more inclined to give us some zooming control on the main window.

I'm not sure what you mean by BASING on it though.

While Falcon's Eye had the Nethack source and the interface stuff for braille readers and all that, there are bots for RL's without those advantages. I was wondering if something could be rigged that would either read the screen or the memory for the screen and pass commands back to the game. It's not like the extra processors are doing anything.

[Mikademus]

Mike, seriously, you have the vision, skill and answers that indicate that everything is well through-through. I am convinced and you have my support. Go, man, I want this interface already!

[ChocoHearts]

Personally, I like the top-down view best; I don't mind pausing and moving up and down Z-levels to see what's going on.

But I've got a bit of a weird idea regarding engravings: what if we lumped them in with the mouseover viewer? That is, an engraved wall just has a fancy border on the sides, and when I hover over the said side, it'll show the engraving info.

[Granite26]

Personally, I like the top-down view best; I don't mind pausing and moving up and down Z-levels to see what's going on.

But I've got a bit of a weird idea regarding engravings: what if we lumped them in with the mouseover viewer? That is, an engraved wall just has a fancy border on the sides, and when I hover over the said side, it'll show the engraving info.

I like the idea.   Pretty fortress to look at, along with the details should you want them.

I think we're all talking about 3 separate things though, between what can be done now, what requires almost no work, and what requires the presentation arc

[Neonivek]

Truthfully I hate diamond patterns if only because I use my keypad making it very confusing. (pretty much the reason why I never got into Gearhead)

Id stick with square if I could.

The exception is of course good mouse support.

[SquashMonster]

If you use an axonometric projection, choose your angle wisely.  Typically, you'll see a projection where the world is rotated 45 degrees about the center, then tilted 30 degrees towards the viewer (this is isometric).  Compare to cavalier, where the world is not rotated about the center, but is still tilted towards the viewer.

Isometric gives you a better view, but messes up the controls.  Cavalier is not as pretty, but doesn't cause the Q-bert control problem.  How do you get the best of both worlds?  Rotate the world a smaller amount.  If you rotate, say, 20 degrees, then you can see both sides of corners.  Pressing up will move you up and slightly to the left, pressing down will move you down and slightly to the right, and so on.  The key here is that the diagonal is slight, so visually it still makes sense what direction you're pressing on the keys.

A quick google search got me an example here:
http://sr19.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/axonometric.jpg
If you look at the tiles, you'll see that they're not a 45 degree rotation.  I'd go for an even shallower rotation than shown here, but hopefully this is enough to make it make sense.

[Mike Mayday]

a basic set using what we have, as opposed to what we wish we had.

If it was doable in any way besides what has already been done, it would have been done already.

Mikademus: I'm glad you like it. Don't worry, I'll work on it as soon as it's possible to use it in the game.

Neonivek: I really don't see the problem:

But anyway, I hope we'll have good mouse support anyway. And non-rotated cavalier keeps the tiles square, so it would be great if both were usable.

Squash: remember that this is per-pixel level stuff we're talking about. Most angles are not possible to draw. You have to operate on pixel increments:
one px vertically, two horizontally  <- standard pixel "near-isometric"
one px vertically, one horizontally  <- 45 degrees
one px vertically, three horizontally
and that's about it.
Oh, and I can't see your image :/

[A_Fey_Dwarf]

Eventually I would like DF to end up with a graphics display like final fantasy tactics or tactics advanced.

e.g.