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Author Topic: Dealing with Defenses, and  (Read 2988 times)

Pickerel

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Dealing with Defenses, and
« on: November 16, 2008, 06:59:01 pm »

Obviously the ability to simply dig a pit or place a wall to block all attacks is a bit overpowered.  Some simple suggestions on how to have creatures that can get around them.

1. Burrow.  Basically, pathfinding of burrowers will take into account the area without walls, or X deep into the soil and stone, and allow them to pass, like vermin, by 'teleporting' in.  It could increase the pathfinding distance by some huge number, so that they only do this if necessary.  They would have to stand next to the wall in question a long time to simulate time it takes to burrow.  Finally, the burrow would be assumed to be destroyed behind them, thus in ground it would leave no trace (though it could destroy walls)... or you could have so the tile is marked as a 'burrow' so that creatures of that size or smaller can fit and use it like a hallway, but others find it useless.

2. Climb: similar dynamics to burrow, but for going 1 z-level up and 1 x- or y-level over, and no wall destroying.

3. Special classes attacking with others.  Example: goblin siege including 3 miners.  This would be hard to code for the AI to dig into the fort, but an easier suggestion would be things like 'Goblin Demolitionists', whose entire job is to walk up to a wall, and blow themselves up, along with anything 1-2 squares away.  These would be deadly foes, capable of destroying walls, but also of killing or injuring any and all dwarves in melee range immediately...

4. Bringing along and assembling siege weapons on-site... and have catapults destroy walls... and have them bring a non-trade 'caravan' of stone to load into the catapult and fire.  Would also make sieges more deadly because siege weapons would kill dwarves too, AND disallow people from just holeing up and waiting it out.  I'm guilty of doing this far too often...
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Duke 2.0

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Re: Dealing with Defenses, and
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2008, 07:03:15 pm »


 Idea: Cave-in smoke damages things in the immidiate area, including walls. Catapults make a small area of cave-in smoke. Two or three catapult shots won't take down a wall, but perhaps five or more would do the trick depending on how well-built the wall is/how well-built the catapult is/what the wall is made of.

 
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Tormy

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Re: Dealing with Defenses, and
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2008, 07:07:29 pm »

All of these have been suggested before. :)
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LegoLord

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Re: Dealing with Defenses, and
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2008, 07:09:40 pm »

Wait! I have a new suggestion!  Instead of digging into your fort to get around moats, how about enemies trying to bridge it.  That combined with wall deconstruction would increase the challenge of sieges without bringing up the issue of AI digging.
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And this is how tinned food was invented.
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Tormy

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Re: Dealing with Defenses, and
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2008, 07:18:40 pm »

Wait! I have a new suggestion!  Instead of digging into your fort to get around moats, how about enemies trying to bridge it.  That combined with wall deconstruction would increase the challenge of sieges without bringing up the issue of AI digging.

.....this has been suggested also, not one but more times already.  ;)
Some examples [my posts]..
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=23735.msg263106#msg263106
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=21602.msg234513#msg234513
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=21627.msg237969#msg237969
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 07:22:32 pm by Tormy »
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LegoLord

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Re: Dealing with Defenses, and
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2008, 07:33:15 pm »

Wait! I have a new suggestion!  Instead of digging into your fort to get around moats, how about enemies trying to bridge it.  That combined with wall deconstruction would increase the challenge of sieges without bringing up the issue of AI digging.

.....this has been suggested also, not one but more times already.  ;)
Some examples [my posts]..
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=23735.msg263106#msg263106
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=21602.msg234513#msg234513
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=21627.msg237969#msg237969
Oh.  Well, I've seen a lot of threads concerning the siege issue, but I've never seen that before.  It seems like a good idea.  Why has it gotten so little attention?
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Tormy

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Re: Dealing with Defenses, and
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2008, 07:35:50 pm »

Wait! I have a new suggestion!  Instead of digging into your fort to get around moats, how about enemies trying to bridge it.  That combined with wall deconstruction would increase the challenge of sieges without bringing up the issue of AI digging.

.....this has been suggested also, not one but more times already.  ;)
Some examples [my posts]..
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=23735.msg263106#msg263106
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=21602.msg234513#msg234513
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=21627.msg237969#msg237969
Oh.  Well, I've seen a lot of threads concerning the siege issue, but I've never seen that before.  It seems like a good idea.  Why has it gotten so little attention?

Hm...well I guess that most of us know that it has been suggested already anyway..probably even Toady knows about it.  :)
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LegoLord

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Re: Dealing with Defenses, and
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2008, 07:38:48 pm »

Wait! I have a new suggestion!  Instead of digging into your fort to get around moats, how about enemies trying to bridge it.  That combined with wall deconstruction would increase the challenge of sieges without bringing up the issue of AI digging.

.....this has been suggested also, not one but more times already.  ;)
Some examples [my posts]..
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=23735.msg263106#msg263106
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=21602.msg234513#msg234513
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=21627.msg237969#msg237969
Oh.  Well, I've seen a lot of threads concerning the siege issue, but I've never seen that before.  It seems like a good idea.  Why has it gotten so little attention?

Hm...well I guess that most of us know that it has been suggested already anyway..probably even Toady knows about it.  :)
If most people know about it then why are they still talking about sappers?  This idea is way better than sappers.  It require the player to act, but holds no digging issues.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Tormy

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Re: Dealing with Defenses, and
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2008, 07:59:48 pm »

The idea is decent yeah....but tunnelers/diggers is also an excellent idea imho. Why do we talk more about tunnelers? Well, probably because it is dividing the community. Some people find the "tunneler" idea annoying, while others -like me- are saying, that it would be an awesome gameplay feature. [The problem is not a problem at all, since if you wouldn't like it, you could remove the tags from the RAWs, but people are talking about it a lot...regardless.  ;D]
Also..
bridge builders = they are useful, when there is a moat around the fortress.
tunnelers = they are useful, when there is no way to get into the fortress, only via tunnels.
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Idiom

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Re: Dealing with Defenses, and
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2008, 09:31:31 pm »

If enemies construct bridges is throw in then this would have my vote.
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LegoLord

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Re: Dealing with Defenses, and
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2008, 10:00:04 pm »

The idea is decent yeah....but tunnelers/diggers is also an excellent idea imho. Why do we talk more about tunnelers? Well, probably because it is dividing the community. Some people find the "tunneler" idea annoying, while others -like me- are saying, that it would be an awesome gameplay feature. [The problem is not a problem at all, since if you wouldn't like it, you could remove the tags from the RAWs, but people are talking about it a lot...regardless.  ;D]
Also..
bridge builders = they are useful, when there is a moat around the fortress.
tunnelers = they are useful, when there is no way to get into the fortress, only via tunnels.
I'm not saying it doesn't sound cool, it just sounds like it's unnecessary when there would be a simpler system that would have the same desired effect without the undesired effect (unwanted tunnels).
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Sunday

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Re: Dealing with Defenses, and
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2008, 12:39:05 am »

Yeah, but you could still build your fortress pretty much completely underground, with one entrance filled with traps - unbeatable except through tunelling, pretty much.

Which is why I think a lot of people want both idea implemented.
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Tormy

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Re: Dealing with Defenses, and
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2008, 08:59:52 am »

Yeah, but you could still build your fortress pretty much completely underground, with one entrance filled with traps - unbeatable except through tunelling, pretty much.

Which is why I think a lot of people want both idea implemented.

Yep, exactly.  :)
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zagibu

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Re: Dealing with Defenses, and
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2008, 09:15:43 am »

You can also seal your entrance with water or lava.

I think diggin AI wouldn't be THAT complicated. It might require group intelligence, though, so that a siege can send in some recon troops, and the group will then know where they have died, and stop before this spot. Diggers would then simply start to dig in a straight line for the spot where a randomly picked "no job"-dwarf hangs around.

Later in the game, when ventilation comes in, diggers could start digging close to ventilation shafts, and dig down for a random amount of z-levels, then start digging horizontally in a random direction.
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LegoLord

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Re: Dealing with Defenses, and
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2008, 06:57:50 pm »

I had another idea.  Once soil tunnel refilling is added in (It has been suggested frequently), Gobbo prefer to (or will only, possibly?) dig through soil.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember
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