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Author Topic: Thermodynamically viable underground farming  (Read 4944 times)

Ari Rahikkala

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Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« on: November 15, 2008, 09:14:44 am »

Hey, folks, let's speculate about ways to get plants or fungi to grow underground that make thermodynamic sense. Hopefully even chemical sense. Let's not go so far, though, as to require these speculations to also make biological or evolutionary sense. After all, this is the Dwarfiverse, where whole species have obsessions with snatching and providing for other species' children that they can't even breed with - limiting ourselves to sane evolutionary biology would obviously be foolish :).

The basic problem here is well known and easy to understand. Currently dwarves grow various plants below ground with great ease. No sunlight is needed, only a floor of soft soil, or mud (and even that needs to only be put in once, not regularly - then again this wasn't the behaviour in the 2d version so this is probably not Toady's final intent). Without some kind of a source of free energy this shouldn't be possible.

(remember the difference between energy and free energy (or, more appropriately for a complex system, negentropy) here. An empty fortress that's unlivably hot would be full of energy but it wouldn't be extractable for work, i.e. free.)

The obvious choice of energy source for underground farming is all kinds of organic waste: Manure, carcasses, corpses, blood, vomit, leaves, branches, grass, sawdust, etc.. Perhaps different kinds of fungi could also be specialised for different materials: If, say, cave wheat only grew on a base of composting leaves and wood materials, it would neatly become a specialty of forts with a large carpentry industry, or if there were a plant that preferred meat as its substrate, just exporting that plant could give your fortress a bloodthirsty reputation. Plump helmets would of course be the omnivore that would eat even your beards if you allowed it to ;).

This kind of farming would form the basic nutrient loop inside your fortress, and insofar as you bring in stuff that grows on the outside, also bring in negentropy. It could also slightly help the fortress in terms of energy efficiency, but a loop of many biological systems like this by necessity doesn't retain a lot of free energy. Because of this, not all fortresses are going to be able to gather in enough organic material from the outside. It takes a lot of work to cultivate a mountainside (though with terracing, and perhaps a magmaworks arrangement to extend the growing season if you're very high, it could certainly be done) or an ocean (especially if you want to set up aquaculture). And even the lushest rainforest will become useless as a negentropy source if you're under siege.

For more interesting underground farming arrangements, then, we could have ways to either store long-term or actually produce underground the negentropy that you need for farming.

Still in the "it kinda makes biological sense" end of the plausibility continuum we could have a product - a kind of a fertiliser - that could be made overland specifically for the purpose of being used for dwarven farming. I could imagine barrels packed tight with some kind of a material with high energy density that dwarves can't digest but that some kind of a dwarf-edible fungus could make use of (I don't know nearly enough about biochemistry to make any good suggestions here - seriously, my first idea was dried grass). Dwarves could buy this stuff from overland civilisations and store it to be able to continue underground farming during sieges or otherwise bad periods.

There are many reasons why you'd want to have this kind of a product available. It might be that it keeps better than dwarven foods. Even if there were readily edible foods that kept better than it, it could still be used to hedge against the spoilage of stocks of some specific kind of food providing some important nutrient. It could have a very high energy density, such that even with the biochemical inefficiency from using it for farming it would still take less space to store this stuff than a dwarven food. Perhaps some of the cultivable fungi, say quarry bush, would be slow to grow but fast to die of starvation (in exchange they could be very tasty and nutritious). They would then require a constant supply of energy to be useful in farming - a product like this could provide that.

So far all of the free energy sources have been heterotrophic - they all on an input of organic material into your fortress. It's going to get weirder now, with various different sorts of autotrophic organisms.

We've got plenty of chemosynthesis here on Earth. It seems that one source of free energy from chemosynthesis in Dwarf Fortress could be bacteria that metabolise hydrogen sulfide (from a magma pipe or a source of natural gas) with oxygen and carbon dioxide. Wikipedia says this would produce water, sulfur and formaldehyde. Unfortunately I haven't had any formal education in chemistry since the one course I took in high school, so I have no idea how these would then continue to react and whether there are bacteria around that would use such reactions as energy sources.

For use in chemosynthesis there's also a whole bunch of sulfides that occur as ores or stones in Dwarf Fortress: With a glance at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfide_mineral I can see galena, sphalerite, cinnabar, realgar, orpiment, stibnite, marcasite, cobaltite, and tetrahedrite - and I probably missed some. I don't really know if it would be energy-efficient to ground these into dust for use by reducing bacteria, though. In any case, I could use a chemist's help here to figure out what kind of compounds you'd expect as the final products of chemosynthetically metabolising these, and how plausible it is that dwarven farming could use them as a negentropy source.

(even if it's not energy efficient to produce food through chemosynthesis this way, I could imagine using it for growing expensive spices, dyes, or thred. Consider all those other races going "look at those crazy dwarves, they made this stuff out of rock dust!")

Leaving behind the limits of Earth biology, we could have plants using energy sources that are weirder still (and perhaps a little bit too science fiction for a fantasy universe like Dwarf Fortress, but bear with me). How about a thermosynthetic plant? You could imagine it growing fibers through stone toward magma and feeding on the temperature difference between that and some environment. You could encourage its growth by arranging for running water next to a magma pipe. The colder the water, the better. Or perhaps you could use a plant like that as a "heat pipe" to bring geothermal heat out to the surface for extending the growing season in cold locations.

Perhaps weirder still, how about growing plants simply with mechanical motion? I'd like to use the word "mechanosynthesis" here to fit in with photosynthesis, chemosynthesis and thermosynthesis, but unfortunately the word's already been taken by nanotechnologists :(. Anyway! Keep in mind that nature *does* have a way of turning chemical energy at the microscopic level into motion at the macroscopic - we call it muscle. I can imagine a kind of a "reverse muscle", flexed and contracted by energy from a windmill or watermill, that would produce chemical energy for a plant's growth. I have no idea how such a being would evolve, but if there's a biochemical mechanism that could transform motion into chemical energy, then an organism could exist that actually uses it.


tl;dr Underground farming makes no sense, and there's a bunch of ways to make it make sense.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2008, 10:32:39 am »

You forgot Radiotrophe Fungis which use alpha beta and Gamaradiaton as energy source. They grow for example in the coffin of Tschernobyl which has some similaritys with an dwarven fortress. Instead of Clorophyl they use Melanin.

There are anerobe bacterias too which produce methan. This bacteria need only few minerals  but an good mass of water and and an slightly alkalik ground. If this bacteria life on the inside of an fungus the fungus could then use the produced Methan with oxigen as energysource. This reaction would result in water and Co2 so the farm would have to have an very good ventilation system.

If you use so called sulfur bacterians you have an good chance of getting an nice energy source. If you have sulfuracid in an good concentraion and you add water the stuff will boil.

There are some Nitrat based exotherm reactions i cant remember currently.
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King Doom

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Re: Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2008, 10:35:49 am »

carniverous plants. Environment with low levels of nutrients available in the soil, what happens? you get stuff like the venus fly trap or the pitcher plant. Smaller versions could eat vermin, larger ones could eat animals or even dwarves, and if domesticated could be used to dispose of all those annoying horse/goat/goblin chunks or ustmos evilmeanbads severed left buttock or whatever. Aquatic versions could act like crab pots, growing along the banks of the underground river, either straining nutrients from the water or trapping small fish and such.


Regarding chemosynthesis, there are plenty of specialised bacteria that thrive on nasty chemicals, but all the ones I know of are in symbiotic relationships with tubeworms or mussels that live a few miles down and around underwater volcanic vents out in the depths of the ocean. It might be possible for a plant or more likely a type of fungi to develop that .. I dunno, has either massive broad leaves that filter out certain gasses that the bacteria break down or convert into something useable or maybe something similar to hair algae, at least in shape. Lots of little bits equals lots of surface area to increase the amount of stuff absorbed.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 10:40:15 am by King Doom »
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Draco18s

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Re: Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2008, 11:46:17 pm »

Why does this sound familiar?

Oh, right, the Underdark and where the drow got their food.
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LegoLord

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Re: Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2008, 11:52:09 pm »

The underground plants are, strictly speaking, fungi, which are completely different.  They decompose detritus in the mud and get energy from that.  The detritus should have come from something outside or something that ate something from the outdoors.
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G-Flex

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Re: Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2008, 03:34:09 pm »

I'm still not sure about dwarven wheat and quarry bushes. After all, dwarven wheat has got to be somewhat similar to normal wheat and can be made into flour, and quarry bushes have LEAVES. So I'm not entirely sure how those can be fungus.

That being said, I like the idea of using compost materials, and other dead/organic stuff to fuel fungal growth underground. It actually makes sense in terms of energy (I've railed against the ridiculousness of underground farming before once or twice).

I'm not sure about hydrogen sulfide. You'd have to get way too close to a magma vent for that stuff to actually work, and the plants would dry out like crazy. Underwater vents sort of alleviate this problem.
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Re: Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2008, 04:06:12 pm »

It's a lot easier to imagine that photosynthesis in the df world operates off a different energy source then rl.  Example:

The sun projects both light and ether.  Light does not pass through objects (except glass and water, etc.) but ether tends to penetrate quite well, a tiny fraction reflects while most goes through.  While ether normally reflects off of surfaces, plants have learned to harness it in the basis for the ethersynthetic biosphere.  Think really long wave length radiation except it tends to reflect, rather then absorb.
The dwarves live rather close to the surface of the world and barely notice the dilution of the ether due to the earth above them, their plants are often quite close to the surface and get about 99% of the ether that a surface plant would get.  The deepest dwarven mines still get about 90% of surface ether.  Even if a suicidal dwarf were to mine straight through the rectangle and plant seeds on the bottom of the world, those seeds would still experience a significant fracticion of the ether on the surface.

Entropy sorta makes sense and there's a reason for quarry bushes to have leaves.
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LegoLord

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Re: Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2008, 04:26:31 pm »

I'm still not sure about dwarven wheat and quarry bushes. After all, dwarven wheat has got to be somewhat similar to normal wheat and can be made into flour, and quarry bushes have LEAVES. So I'm not entirely sure how those can be fungus.

That being said, I like the idea of using compost materials, and other dead/organic stuff to fuel fungal growth underground. It actually makes sense in terms of energy (I've railed against the ridiculousness of underground farming before once or twice).

I'm not sure about hydrogen sulfide. You'd have to get way too close to a magma vent for that stuff to actually work, and the plants would dry out like crazy. Underwater vents sort of alleviate this problem.
Cave wheat could be a type of fungus that becomes flour-like when ground.  Quarry bush "leaves" don't necessarily have to have photosynthetic functions.  The leaves could just be what releases the spores of the fungi.  And the idea is that there is dead organic material in the mud because the water came from a natural source.
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Agent_Irons

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Re: Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2008, 08:50:39 pm »

I think Mr. Ether is on to something.

Radio waves are a viable source of energy. At least for those plants that grow on soil. Mutant chlorophyll could pick up much lower wavelength radiation (no it couldn't, but it's only a question of numbers), like the kind that penetrates several stories of dirt.

For deeper rock and water farms, blame the sulfides.
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G-Flex

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Re: Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2008, 08:55:06 pm »

Ambient radio waves aren't powerful enough to drive anything like photosynthesis. I would say more here, but that's really all there is to it. Ambient radiation aside from visible light is pretty low in power.
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Cavalcadeofcats

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Re: Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2008, 09:15:36 pm »

Interesting ideas. Name suggestion: "Automosynthesis"? (Also, shouldn't this have gone in the Suggestions forum?)
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LegoLord

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Re: Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2008, 09:41:14 pm »

Can't we just say that all subterranean crops are fungi?  It makes sense, follows what the OP is looking for, and regular soil (not mud) could have old, preserved detritus in that was never fully decomposed.  It happens a lot.  You could dig a hole and find little bits of dead root and old animal remains in the dirt.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

G-Flex

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Re: Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2008, 09:45:44 pm »

That's true, but not sustainable for the long term. Even if there's nondecayed organic matter for the fungus to feed on, it won't last. I'd be all in favor of compost heaps and fertilization.

Also, underground crops should ALWAYS grow substantially more slowly than aboveground crops. It just makes sense, and dwarves need more reasons to have to interact with the outdoors as it is.
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LegoLord

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Re: Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2008, 09:53:25 pm »

That's true, but not sustainable for the long term. Even if there's nondecayed organic matter for the fungus to feed on, it won't last. I'd be all in favor of compost heaps and fertilization.

Also, underground crops should ALWAYS grow substantially more slowly than aboveground crops. It just makes sense, and dwarves need more reasons to have to interact with the outdoors as it is.
Wrong.  Fungi grow really freakin' fast.  Like overnight fast.  They are constantly growing on my lawn, which has poor soil and not that much dead material.  However, a significant size would take at least a week.  And re-irrigating is something that is already intended to be added back in to DF.  It was in the 2D version, but got removed when the game moved to 3D because of the new mechanics that came with being able to embark nearly anywhere.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

G-Flex

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Re: Thermodynamically viable underground farming
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2008, 09:57:24 pm »

You make a good point about them growing fast, but to make up for that they'd need a hell of a lot of upkeep. After all, if the same value of food is growing in one week instead of six, you'll (on average) need to maintain it six times as often.

So maybe underground stuff growing slowly isn't right. Maybe it should just have smaller stacks (to represent less nutritional value) or require much, much more upkeep, or something like that.
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