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[dizzyelk]

I think goblins should take more of a Mongolian approach to sieges. They should adopt more devious and underhanded methods to root out their enemies, such as poisoning water supplies beforehand, throwing dead animals over the walls with catapults to spread disease. That sort of thing would mesh well with the siege camp idea I think.

They also sent spies and assasines... something I think goblins would have a very hard time doing.

Goblins, sure, but what about all the babies they've snatched? A dwarf that grew up with them could be sent, after all I've seen goblin squads led by dwarven champions.

[Neonivek]

Also, why would scouts spot the siege immediatly?

Alright it is an exageration... I mean't rather quickly as in the scouts (who are up ahead) would spot the seige, run to the carrivan, and shout "Hey enemies!". Should the scouts be killed the Carrivan won't get their scouts back and should thus run away.

Basically what I mean is, except for a rather small carrivan or one so large that it has its own private army (which did often happen). I don't see them getting attacked by a siege camp.

Goblins, sure, but what about all the babies they've snatched?

PERFECT!!! It could also be the method in which Goblins disable your traps. (Send a fake migrant who writes down the locations of all the traps... Escapes... Then gives them the report)

It's an underground fortress, how would they even know where to dig?

Well several non-psychic reasons (though the game runs on its own fair bit of psychic powers as it is)
1) Tales from the fortress to the world including Laisons and merchants who visited said location
2) Possible experience (Perhaps some goblins got into the base and left)
3) Trial and Error mixed in with educated guesses: If you know where the entance is (which they do) then you know where their base must be.
4) Spoke to animals, Artifacts, and other magic: Being a magical world there are quite a few methods of gaining a layout of your fortress or at least a vague understanding of where things are.
5) Underground Sonar: Also known as Tremor-sense.
6) Fake Migrants, Hidden spies, theives (who can sneak well).
7) Captured Prisoners: Ok this one makes me mad... It should be more possible to take people and creatures alive in battle.

Don't get me wrong I am not suggesting magica

I can't fix the ruptured waterworks after the psychic goblin tunnelers dig into the bedrock to get into my apartment complex or refill that pit they dug into the soil to get under my walls

After requiring flood control it should become easier. After you close it off you then pump the water out. I do agree that this possibly should wait until the ability to dam (and use pumps) are easier. Though some maps it is justifyable (Volcanos for example are supposed to be EXACTLY this kind of nightmare in the future)

learn to spell

Not likely to happen. My current ability to spell words come from years of trial and error. You are going to notice tons of spelling mistakes and there is nothing I can do about it without delving into the realm of the unreasonable.

Also I substitute words and forget letters for some odd reason while writing. You should notice that a lot.

the caravan guards have high attributes and are quite adept at killing multiple goblin ambushes at once

If the Carrivan feels that the guards can break the siege, which would require a report by the scouts, and that the location will buy their goods then they could, depending on their personality and relationship with the siegers, try to break the siege. A proper and prepared siege should be more then enough to deal with a simple carrivan "Eat squad of Marksmen Shoppers!"

[Milskidasith]

Also, why would scouts spot the siege immediatly?

Alright it is an exageration... I mean't rather quickly as in the scouts (who are up ahead) would spot the seige, run to the carrivan, and shout "Hey enemies!". Should the scouts be killed the Carrivan won't get their scouts back and should thus run away.

Basically what I mean is, except for a rather small carrivan or one so large that it has its own private army (which did often happen). I don't see them getting attacked by a siege camp.

That's basically what my suggestion with scouts was, though I do like the "flees in terror" idea. Of course, caravans could also get cocky and go in with inferior forces... Heh.

learn to spell

Not likely to happen. My current ability to spell words come from years of trial and error. You are going to notice tons of spelling mistakes and there is nothing I can do about it without delving into the realm of the unreasonable.

Err.... didn't everybody learn to spell by trial and error? I mean, not many people read the dictionary for fun, and I didn't need a teacher to tell me how to spell every word... a simple spell-checking tool or even simply reading other people's posts and learning how they spell words isn't hard at all.

the caravan guards have high attributes and are quite adept at killing multiple goblin ambushes at once

If the Carrivan feels that the guards can break the siege, which would require a report by the scouts, and that the location will buy their goods then they could, depending on their personality and relationship with the siegers, try to break the siege. A proper and prepared siege should be more then enough to deal with a simple carrivan "Eat squad of Marksmen Shoppers!"
[/quote]

That's actually what I was suggesting, basically, except the civilizations could also send armies (or at least large squads) along with the caravans in order to facilitate trade (their willingness to do this would be based on relations with that civilization, of course).

[Neonivek]

I didn't need a teacher to tell me how to spell every word

What I MEANT was that I didn't learn how to spell by noticing patterns between words and being able to instinctively spell any word that comes my way. No for the most part I had and still have to learn each and every word I know individually.

[Milskidasith]

I didn't need a teacher to tell me how to spell every word

What I MEANT was that I didn't learn how to spell by noticing patterns between words and being able to instinctively spell any word that comes my way. No for the most part I had and still have to learn each and every word I know individually.

Odd... I mean, I learned certain tricky words by learning the individual spelling, but for the most part you can learn words by the way they sound. This is terribly off topic, though. Let's talk about goblins, slaughter, and all the other stuff that dwarves know and love.

[Captain Failmore]

Constructed walls and doors can be replaced. Soldiers can be replaced (also gives a great excuse to build mausoleums for the heroes) I can't fix the ruptured waterworks after the psychic goblin tunnelers dig into the bedrock to get into my apartment complex or refill that pit they dug into the soil to get under my walls

It's an underground fortress, how would they even know where to dig? How would the AI determine where to dig? It's not feasible, artistically or mechanically and would be little else than frustrating. Might as well let them teleport around

Why It's Possible -

If the enemy comes into your map not knowing anything about the layout of your fortress, it's understandable that they might not know exactly where to dig. Randomly probing into the ground and digging useless tunnels in hopes of finding your fortress is both inefficient and needlessly destructive. So, how is it that an enemy should be able to locate your fortress? Should the enemy artificial intelligence simply know because it can pull your fortress layout from memory, thus cheating to break in? (Being 'psychic', as you say.)

No, and it doesn't have to. It doesn't have to cheat at all.

Instead, the enemy should act just like you would in that situation.

1. Gather Intelligence
Enemy sends scouts into the surrounding area. These scouts uncover parts of the map not known to the enemy. If they find any artificial structures or sight any dwarfs, they'll see where they lead. If they come across anything of value, it becomes a potential target. Real-time strategy games already do this a lot. (Total Annihilation had a pretty 'honest' artificial intelligence that got better as people modded it, and that was eleven years ago.) The targets - valuable rooms, stockpiles, workshops, barracks - are sorted by value and walking distance, also simple.

If the scouts return safely with their intelligence, the enemy will attempt a raid if they haven't already.

2. Attempt Raid

Using the information gathered by scouts, a raiding party is sent to attack the fortress, already knowing where to go and possibly what traps to avoid. The raid could be spearheaded by stealth units that attempt to cause damage from the inside, preventing an effective response. If the raid is successful, obviously you've either been annihilated or have run for the hills. But if it isn't...

3. Escalation

Siege weapons and sappers become options in the enemy arsenal. Sappers will, based on the intelligence the scouting and raiding parties gathered, path-find their way to your valuable things by digging. (That is, here's a spot relatively close to where I want to dig, now I'll dig in a straight line toward the target with stairs and such.) If they don't know it's there, they won't waste their time digging to it! Invariably, someone will eventually see the door to your fortress and try to break it down, though. Sappers are just one way of doing this.

Here's another way they can find out where your stuff is, especially if it's close to the surface. Sound. The same sound radius that disturbs sleep could tip off a scout to the location of a 'something' if scouts perform a check for it.

[Grumman]

Goblins, sure, but what about all the babies they've snatched? A dwarf that grew up with them could be sent, after all I've seen goblin squads led by dwarven champions.

They'd stick out like sore thumbs. It would be a clear attempt at fake difficulty for a dwarf that has been raised by goblins her entire life to be able to pass for a dwarf with the proper understanding of dwarf culture and language.

[LegoLord]

okay, look the point still stands that sapping will leave tunnels all over your area, turning it into swiss mountain.  Magma is the best way to seal that up.  There is also the problem of goblins accidentally uncovering HFS features (not just the pits, but the other things as well.  If you don't know it's there, why would they?  And there are floods that can't be undone.  They aren't as common as in 2D, but permafloods still exist.

[Neonivek]

Goblins, sure, but what about all the babies they've snatched? A dwarf that grew up with them could be sent, after all I've seen goblin squads led by dwarven champions.

They'd stick out like sore thumbs. It would be a clear attempt at fake difficulty for a dwarf that has been raised by goblins her entire life to be able to pass for a dwarf with the proper understanding of dwarf culture and language.

Sure they would be odd... but how many crazy people do you see outside do you suspect is a Russian Spy?

Even then the Russians (or it could have been the Germans) constructed whole towns to train their spies.

Goblins only have to train the dwarf to be PASSABLE for a Dwarf, and because these are Goblins and not aliens I don't think it is too difficult. Even then it would then rely on your dwarves ability to not only see through the ruse, but to attribute it to danger.

It also wouldn't be Fake difficult since the spies who do get through wouldn't instantly take down your base, they would only supply one extra advantage to an enemy. If the Spies could plant bombs in your base and essentially destroy your base... Then yes it applies.

Lastly, don't forget that Dwarves at one point could conceivably become enemies.

okay, look the point still stands that sapping will leave tunnels all over your area, turning it into swiss mountain.

A long time ago before I really got used to dungeons and dragons I said to someone "Whoa these Chaos Beasts are dangerous? How can we play the game if they are that good" and he said to be "Yeah because as you know there is a Chaos Beast around every Corner, inside every closet, and under every planter..."

Just because Sappers exist doesn't mean that your going to be flooded non-stop, doesn't mean they will constantly take new routs, and they probably won't get that deep. Even then there is always the idea (That I still love) that the tunnels they make will collaspe naturally over time or you could collapse it yourself.

Your kinda taking the idea "Lets get sappers" and transforming it into "Lets Flood the world with Sappers MWAHAHAHAA!!!"

Besides you mean "Tunnelers" not Sappers (Sappers try to collaspe walls... Not find a way into your base... Hense why they are called a Sapper). It is just one more strategy the enemy can use, not the fall back. (It is also a great strategy enemy Dwarves can do)

[LegoLord]

But that one time they do flood your fortress in a neigh-unreversable way by sheer chance, or unleash HFS by complete accident, you will wish you had listened.

Besides, you'd get microline messages all the time, when you aren't even the one digging.  This may not stay, but it's very likely to happen early on.

[Neonivek]

But that one time they do flood your fortress in a neigh-unreversable way by sheer chance, or unleash HFS by complete accident, you will wish you had listened.

Besides, you'd get microline messages all the time, when you aren't even the one digging.  This may not stay, but it's very likely to happen early on.

Well getting into HFC would be interesting (HOPEFULLY one day digging through that stuff won't be so "La di da" easy) though isn't the HFC a bit too deep for enemies to realistically find? (Hmm I should check... I always was under the impression it was always close to the 10 and lower mark)

We probably should give Tunnelers and Sappers some level of common sense. Though since you CAN now see sites with HFC unlike before (or so I hear) I guess it is part of the challenge to keep people from trying to get greedy with the lovely HFC HFC.

Goodness I could go for some KFC right now... I have no Idea why I call HFS HFC instead.

Another aspect could be... For example I NEVER espect Tunnelers/Sappers to tunnel from off map to your base... so if they have got to a HFS layer... Then that is the time you call ALL the stops and get them before they give off a aura of HFS that smells of Hentai.

It isn't a bad gameplay choice to include some events that force people to actually go on the offense. What would you do if the enemies were starting to plant five ballistae in range to the entrance to your fort so they could do hit and runs?

[LegoLord]

It isn't a bad gameplay choice to include some events that force people to actually go on the offense. What would you do if the enemies were starting to plant five ballistae in range to the entrance to your fort so they could do hit and runs?

The only big issue on this thread is the sapping.  There needs to be a middle ground.  Hence why I suggested it be a game feature, but off by default.  Newbs have enough trouble with sieges as they are.  I did.  Please, think of the newbs.  We don't want them (and their money  ) running away from DF (and the donations button  ).

You know I might put that last line into my sig.

[JohnieRWilkins]

Wouldn't it make a lot more sense if sapping was simply deconstructing walls?

[Neonivek]

Wouldn't it make a lot more sense if sapping was simply deconstructing walls?

It is pretty much this but a sapper I guess could want to sap multiple walls at once.

Though a Sapper wouldn't be any creature that can destroy walls (I wonder if a Troll will eventually get wall destroying powers)

[irmo]

The only big issue on this thread is the sapping.  There needs to be a middle ground.  Hence why I suggested it be a game feature, but off by default.  Newbs have enough trouble with sieges as they are.  I did.  Please, think of the newbs.  We don't want them (and their money  ) running away from DF (and the donations button  ).

That's why the last thread on this subject veered into a discussion of difficulty curves.

The game should give you time to establish a foothold, and then start throwing bigger and badder stuff at you. So start with no sieges (you haven't made any enemies yet, especially if--like a smart newb--you've put your fortress inside dwarf territory), and then you get occasional raiding parties with no special weapons, and eventually (once you show that you're too tough for them) they bring in masons (for door and constructed-wall removal), and siege engineers, and miners, and so on.

Increased challenge should be an inevitable consequence of progressing through the game, not a magic switch in the init file.