Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Granite26]

Not to mention there could be tons of enemies that appear inside your fortress if a certain condition is met or that stem naturally from your defensive strategies.

You cover your base in Lava? well perhaps eventually something larger then a fireimp attacks! This happens whether or not your base is indestructable, but it does mean that even an invincible fortress may have to deal with an attack or two.

IMHO the most broken thing about the game right now is the disconnect between additional features and additional difficulty.  Playing the game on a 'harder' setting is inversely related to how much of the game you use.

This is the kind of thing that starts to correct that.  (I.E. IMHO 'easy' mode should be playing on a plain with no features whatsoever, and the more features you get in your site, the harder it is, but the more things you can do.)

DF is as hard as you want it to be right now. This concept is excellent imo. Having more features doesn't means that the difficulty of the game is harder. Having more features = ++ to the diversity of the gameplay. I don't think that this is a bad thing actually.
If you want to play on harder setting, you can easily modify the RAWs.
Now if Toady will ever implement stuff like teleporters, or tunnelers/diggers, that will enchance the gameplay and the difficulty also. Perhaps features like those should be turned off by default in the vanilla game? Anyway I am just theorizing, but lot of people wouldn't like to have a "raised diff. level", I am pretty sure about that. [Obviously not me, but even some older players were complaining about diggers/tunnelers for example]

You missed the point.  People that say that the game is as hard as you want it to be inevitably suggest using fewer of the features.  Game's too easy?  don't use traps.  Game's too easy?  No archers.  Game's too easy?  Don't use lava.

There's no risk/reward structure.  It's a less-risk/reward...

IMHO, the low risk / high reward locations should have cities on them and be fought over.  What's left should be either the hard places with lots of resources, or the easy places where you don't do much but farm and dig out the occasional bit of copper.

More Gold = More goblins to steal it.
Lava = Lava monsters
Rivers = Pirates

Risk goes up and Reward goes up, not risk goes up reward goes down... That doesn't make any sense.  Do you hop around all day on one foot because walking is to easy?

[Grumman]

IMHO, the low risk / high reward locations should have cities on them and be fought over.  What's left should be either the hard places with lots of resources, or the easy places where you don't do much but farm and dig out the occasional bit of copper.

Such a situation requires two things: a scarcity of high-reward locations, and the means to identify high-reward locations. Above ground resources can be identified easily, but trees and water are so common that anyone can find what they need. On the other hand, below ground resources can only be discovered after extensive tunnelling, meaning that nobody has the knowledge required to lay claim to just the best spots. By the time anyone knows you've got a high-reward area, you're already dug in and can protect your claim.

[Granite26]

IMHO, the low risk / high reward locations should have cities on them and be fought over.  What's left should be either the hard places with lots of resources, or the easy places where you don't do much but farm and dig out the occasional bit of copper.

Such a situation requires two things: a scarcity of high-reward locations, and the means to identify high-reward locations. Above ground resources can be identified easily, but trees and water are so common that anyone can find what they need. On the other hand, below ground resources can only be discovered after extensive tunnelling, meaning that nobody has the knowledge required to lay claim to just the best spots. By the time anyone knows you've got a high-reward area, you're already dug in and can protect your claim.

To some extent, yes.  OTOH, people think they should be able to scan for caves or magma to find those sites when they want.  I don't necessarily mean "gold in them thar' hills" so much as people who claim that balancing the game is as simple as playing without magma or running water.  Iron is another huge advantage to play, but there's no benefit whatsoever for playing without it.  There's no reason not to prospect for a site with iron reserves.

Your free trees are already well balanced.  It's easy to find as many as you want, but the elves will get pissy (costing you max exports and probably a few sieges) if you cut down too many.

[Grumman]

To some extent, yes.  OTOH, people think they should be able to scan for caves or magma to find those sites when they want.

People want to be able to scan for caves or magma because this is a game, and it is more fun if you can build your magma fort without restarting a hundred times. It has nothing to do with what abilities should be available to NPCs.

Iron is another huge advantage to play, but there's no benefit whatsoever for playing without it.  There's no reason not to prospect for a site with iron reserves.

In character, the obvious reason not to prospect is that the opportunity cost is prohibitive: it simply isn't worth spending years surveying an area if they haven't already decided that they're going to set up an outpost there. Out of character, there's no reason why iron should be balanced compared to a lack of iron.

[peekama]

Theres a lot of debate of balance, so here's my two cents: Enemies shouldn't be balanced in their actions, but instead their abilities. Meaning, the game shouldn't withhold from throwing a few goblins your way in the first year just because it wouldn't be "fair". Like somebody said before, the goblins don't give two shits about "fair". Rather, the goblins sent would be relatively weak, and barring some bizarre accident, could be fended off by the starting 7 with little injury.

When it comes to features like magma, I agree that there should be some risk involved. As it is, all you need to do is kill a few imps and a neverending source of magma is yours. This makes it so that even the newest of players could use magma. Getting the best thing in the game on your first fort doesn't really sound like fun to me.

I'd (and I'm sure a lot of other people too) find it much more fun to have to work for that marvelous red gold, and have some sort of recurring risk to keep it, like in the 2d version. There was always that chance of an imp ambush that keep a couple dwarves stationed at the magma river.

As it is, the only feature that really has a reason to not dig out is HFS. I'm not saying that digging out iron should let HFS baddies into the fort, just that there should be some kind of deterrent to mining it, say, a small group of human bandits comes to try and kill your fort so the iron can be theirs. I'm not saying that specifically would happen, just something like that.


And with teleportation, I think there should be three kinds (not all in one creature mind you): Line of sight, defense, and anywhere-within-range.  Line of sight is self explanitory, a creature with this kind of teleportation could teleport to a spot, within LoS and a certain range, like 5 tiles or something. This would also have a relatively long cooldown, maybe 30 secs, or 300 frames or something. This could be used for things like the shock and awe goblins mentioned earlier. It's not powerful enough to ruin your shit, but it still gives the creature the power to get past a moat/death hall.

Second would be the defense teleport. I could see this being used by creatures in a good biome. Presumably they would drop something nice, or their bones would be valuable. Something about the creature give it reason to teleport to a (pseudo)random tile on the map. Once again, there would be a fairly long cooldown.

And lastly, the anywhere-within-range teleport.  This could be used for megabeasts/demons, and would give them the ability to teleport anywhere in a certain range. Since these are pretty serious creatures, the range would be large, and instead of an arbitrary cooldown length, it would be based on how far they teleported, yet still be fairly short.

Some creatures could also have an effect when they teleport, such as a poof of smoke, or a burst of fire(think demons). As a final thought, maybe a dwarf could get a thought from seeing something teleport:
Urist McRock was recently startled to see a creature disappear in a cloud of smoke.

[Grumman]

I'm not saying that digging out iron should let HFS baddies into the fort, just that there should be some kind of deterrent to mining it, say, a small group of human bandits comes to try and kill your fort so the iron can be theirs. I'm not saying that specifically would happen, just something like that.

You think that digging up raw materials containing the most common element on the planet is significant enough to attract bandits? What's next, a gang of murderous sand thieves?

[Granite26]

I'm not saying that digging out iron should let HFS baddies into the fort, just that there should be some kind of deterrent to mining it, say, a small group of human bandits comes to try and kill your fort so the iron can be theirs. I'm not saying that specifically would happen, just something like that.

You think that digging up raw materials containing the most common element on the planet is significant enough to attract bandits? What's next, a gang of murderous sand thieves?

Realism vs Gameplay...

Sand is a good example though.  You are limited in things you can expect in a site, and sand is one that's harder to find.  (The only problem is that you can't get it otherwise)  Players aren't willing to deal with finding something as part of the difficulty, though.

I agree about iron though.  Most sites should have enough iron to make a go of it...  OTOH, the goblin traders certainly bring more than enough.

[Tormy]

Not to mention there could be tons of enemies that appear inside your fortress if a certain condition is met or that stem naturally from your defensive strategies.

You cover your base in Lava? well perhaps eventually something larger then a fireimp attacks! This happens whether or not your base is indestructable, but it does mean that even an invincible fortress may have to deal with an attack or two.

IMHO the most broken thing about the game right now is the disconnect between additional features and additional difficulty.  Playing the game on a 'harder' setting is inversely related to how much of the game you use.

This is the kind of thing that starts to correct that.  (I.E. IMHO 'easy' mode should be playing on a plain with no features whatsoever, and the more features you get in your site, the harder it is, but the more things you can do.)

DF is as hard as you want it to be right now. This concept is excellent imo. Having more features doesn't means that the difficulty of the game is harder. Having more features = ++ to the diversity of the gameplay. I don't think that this is a bad thing actually.
If you want to play on harder setting, you can easily modify the RAWs.
Now if Toady will ever implement stuff like teleporters, or tunnelers/diggers, that will enchance the gameplay and the difficulty also. Perhaps features like those should be turned off by default in the vanilla game? Anyway I am just theorizing, but lot of people wouldn't like to have a "raised diff. level", I am pretty sure about that. [Obviously not me, but even some older players were complaining about diggers/tunnelers for example]

You missed the point.  People that say that the game is as hard as you want it to be inevitably suggest using fewer of the features.  Game's too easy?  don't use traps.  Game's too easy?  No archers.  Game's too easy?  Don't use lava.

There's no risk/reward structure.  It's a less-risk/reward...

IMHO, the low risk / high reward locations should have cities on them and be fought over.  What's left should be either the hard places with lots of resources, or the easy places where you don't do much but farm and dig out the occasional bit of copper.

More Gold = More goblins to steal it.
Lava = Lava monsters
Rivers = Pirates

Risk goes up and Reward goes up, not risk goes up reward goes down... That doesn't make any sense.  Do you hop around all day on one foot because walking is to easy?

Ah yeah, I really missed the point...I blame it on my "far from perfect" english knowledge. 
Yeah what you say makes sense indeed. I agree. 

[Qmarx]

I'm not saying that digging out iron should let HFS baddies into the fort, just that there should be some kind of deterrent to mining it, say, a small group of human bandits comes to try and kill your fort so the iron can be theirs. I'm not saying that specifically would happen, just something like that.

You think that digging up raw materials containing the most common element on the planet is significant enough to attract bandits? What's next, a gang of murderous sand thieves?

The 8 most common elements in Earth’s crust (by mass):
46.6% Oxygen (O)
27.7% Silicon (Si)
8.1% Aluminum (Al)
5.0% Iron (Fe)
3.6% Calcium (Ca)
2.8% Sodium (Na)
2.6% Potassium (K)
2.1% Magnesium (Mg)

Iron's only the fourth most common...

[irmo]

Iron's only the fourth most common...

Thank you for saving me the trouble.

Anyway, the reason you'll get robbed for your iron is not that you have a mountain with iron ore in it, but that you've taken some of it out of the ground and purified it. Your neighbors might find it more profitable to jack you for your refined iron than to start digging on the other side of the mountain and build their own smelter. Even more so if they lack dwarven powers of mining and metallurgy.

[Neonivek]

Even then Bandits arn't attacking your fortress because it happens to be in an area with Iron... They are attacking it because you have not only found an Iron deposit but you also have the equipment and tunnels required to get it.

Opps IRMO beat me to it XD

There are other stark differences between real life and Dwarf Fortress. For example there is more Gold in Dwarf Fortress, regardless of the size of the world, then on Earth. There are also less common gemstones in Dwarf Fortress then in real life such as quartz.

[Milskidasith]

And aluminum is far less common in DF than IRL, although it could be because dwarves have to find a vein of pure aluminum (a hard feat, since it usually requires electricity to purify).

[winner]

aluminum is quite common in dwarf fortress, my current fort has several layers almost filled with bauxite.

[Grumman]

Iron's only the fourth most common...

The forth most common in the Earth's crust, not the Earth as a whole, which was the number I was referring to. But even using the lower number, the Earth's crust is still 1 part iron to 19 parts everything else. What kind of bandit throws themselves into the meatgrinder that is your average dwarf fortress over iron?

Anyway, the reason you'll get robbed for your iron is not that you have a mountain with iron ore in it, but that you've taken some of it out of the ground and purified it. Your neighbors might find it more profitable to jack you for your refined iron than to start digging on the other side of the mountain and build their own smelter. Even more so if they lack dwarven powers of mining and metallurgy.

Surely they also lack dwarven powers of X-ray vision? It's an underground fortress, how the hell should they know what you're smelting in the depths?

[Random832]

I agree about iron though.  Most sites should have enough iron to make a go of it...  OTOH, the goblin traders certainly bring more than enough.

i c wut u did thar...