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Author Topic: No more invincible forts  (Read 23981 times)

WJLIII3

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2008, 01:45:06 pm »

Frankly, I like invincible forts. Its a staple of fantasy, since the dawn of time, really. Dwarves tunnel in, and nothing rousts them. They use tricks and traps and immovable killing machine warriors, and nothing can ever get through. When Ironforge closed its gates, the Horde just gave up and went by. Moria was ever impenetrable from outside, even when goblins had infested it, and we all know goblins are nothing compared to dwarves. It took a terrible and ancient demonic demi-god, coming from inside, to beat it. Mithril Hall, similarly, could never be taken from without when defended, the only legitimate threat came from below, and even that was repulsed.

In fact, in all the examples of fantasy dwarven fortresses I could think of, barring only one, the only dangers that ever threatened them were dangers from below. The sole exception to the rule, in all my experience with fantasy (which is no small amount) is the Lonely Mountain, which fell to a dragon, a threat which is perfectly acceptable, and will be a real danger in DF once the megabeast AI is enhanced. They'll fly over your moats and bash down your doors, just like real dragons should, and you'll have to kill them with your army. That is the only acceptable threat form the surface to real dwarves.

I mean, seriously....goblins? goblins? You know when the last time I seriously considered a dwarf endangered by goblins was? When Thorin and company were outnumbered 500 to 13. And I wasn't that worried.

So I guess what I'm really saying is sure, no invincible forts. But the surface-side threats shouldn't be...well...threats. A properly defended fort should be completely immune to all attacks from above. HFS and Underdark threats, on the other hand...well.....
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 01:51:40 pm by WJLIII3 »
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Skynet 2.0

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2008, 02:01:47 pm »

It don't think it should be impossible to make a fort invincible, it should just be much harder than it is now. All you have to do right now is put a drawbridge in front of your entrance, and nothing can get to you. The magma tunnelers would make magma much more dangerous than it is right now, as you would have to find some way to manage the holes that would be drilled in your magma defenses, otherwise the lower parts of your fort would be flooded with magma.
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WJLIII3

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2008, 02:04:44 pm »

It don't think it should be impossible to make a fort invincible, it should just be much harder than it is now. All you have to do right now is put a drawbridge in front of your entrance, and nothing can get to you. The magma tunnelers would make magma much more dangerous than it is right now, as you would have to find some way to manage the holes that would be drilled in your magma defenses, otherwise the lower parts of your fort would be flooded with magma.

Tunnelers in general I don't like. I spend tremendous amounts of time and effort making my forts symmetrical and pretty, and if there are monsters that are gonna start drilling hole in it, I'm building up an army of 100 legendary +5 marksdwarfs who will sit outside, at all times, and murder the fuck out of tunneling monsters that come within a hundred miles of my fort.
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Silverionmox

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2008, 02:07:46 pm »

Quite a lot of fortresses in the real world have never been conquered. Often the sieging army just gave up after the countryside was pillaged. It's arguable whether the fortress in question fulfilled its function, i.e. securing the countryside, or not. Hell, the enemy didn't even bother to attack many a fortress - too difficult.
Let's not forget that pulling back in a fortress means you're losing already.

Quote
It don't think it should be impossible to make a fort invincible, it should just be much harder than it is now. All you have to do right now is put a drawbridge in front of your entrance, and nothing can get to you. The magma tunnelers would make magma much more dangerous than it is right now, as you would have to find some way to manage the holes that would be drilled in your magma defenses, otherwise the lower parts of your fort would be flooded with magma.
Drawbridges aren't that practical either; I routinely lose dwarves because of ambushes, even with a moat and auto-closing drawbridges. The point of a siege is, primarily, to pillage what can be pillaged and to disrupt a stronghold's relations with the outside world.
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Align

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2008, 02:10:37 pm »

We must have tunneling enemies if only for the hilarity of players screaming in rage as stupid-ass drillnoses or whatever go through the wrong wall and are reduced to smoke while the fort floods with magma.
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zagibu

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2008, 02:14:45 pm »

I just can't picture an awesome beast that can live in magma and tunnel to be controlled by goblins. If they roam free, and are pretty rare, sure. Some kind of magma worm, maybe a distant relative of dragons, who knows. They could ride the magma streams, and dig nests in solid rock, where they sleep and breed. Maybe they absorb energy from the magma's heat. Or maybe they hunt the fire imps and magma men.
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Earthquake Damage

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2008, 05:08:15 pm »

Tunnelers in general I don't like. I spend tremendous amounts of time and effort making my forts symmetrical and pretty, and if there are monsters that are gonna start drilling hole in it, I'm building up an army of 100 legendary +5 marksdwarfs who will sit outside, at all times, and murder the fuck out of tunneling monsters that come within a hundred miles of my fort.

I'm with this guy.
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Skynet 2.0

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2008, 06:00:58 pm »

There should at least be ways for goblins to get around basic fort defenses, it doesn't have to mean tunnelers. They could be able to deconstruct walls, like your Dwarves, but much slower, and be able to build their own small bridges to get across magma/water moats. Also, it would make things more interesting if a few goblin engineers came with each siege, and  attempted to disarm as many traps as they could before they accidentally triggered the one they were working on. Tunnelers should be an option, but they don't need to dig straight to your fort. They could just dig small tunnels under the walls/moat, and to get around your trap-lined entrance hallway. Also, goblin thieves/snatchers should be able to detect any traps they pass within a few tiles of, and report them to the goblin army, which would make it harder to rely on traps. If they weren't detected, several goblins should charge in to the trapped hallway. Once the other goblins saw the first group get ripped to shreds, then they would try to find a way around. If you wanted a trap-hall, you could have a main entrance that was normally open and untrapped, which the snatchers would try to use, and a secondary, locked one that you opened when a siege began, while locking the main one.
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irmo

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2008, 06:11:06 pm »

Tunnelers in general I don't like. I spend tremendous amounts of time and effort making my forts symmetrical and pretty, and if there are monsters that are gonna start drilling hole in it, I'm building up an army of 100 legendary +5 marksdwarfs who will sit outside, at all times, and murder the fuck out of tunneling monsters that come within a hundred miles of my fort.

See, this is exactly the attitude that tunnelers ought to inspire in the player.

The problem is that I can't imagine a defense against them. Your legendary marksdwarves aren't much use against something that lives underground, and if it can dig through natural rock[1], it can dig through anything you construct. Maybe not metal, which would let you build an "ironclad" fortress that's proof against rock tunnelers, but at great expense.

Okay, I can imagine a defense. Dig a deep trench around the outer wall of the fortress so that there's no place for them to stand while tunneling through the wall. If you dig all the way to the lowest Z-level, they can't dig under the trench and come in from beneath, either. Connect to the outside world with drawbridges, though if you're paranoid enough to do this, you probably don't want drawbridges.

The less paranoid version would be to dig out space around your "outer" wall on every level (but not knock out the floor) so that you can attack them before they get into the fortress proper. It would also make sense for the game to give some advance warning about rock tunnelers (dwarves should pick up the sound at a distance and know what it is) and for the digging process to be fairly slow so that you have time to respond.


[1] I assume dwarves and a few rare critters will be able to do this; the more common digging critters will only dig through dirt, and will be much less dangerous.
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Skynet 2.0

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2008, 06:17:33 pm »

Actually, using the massive trench, the tunnelers could still dig down to the bottom z-level, walk across, and continue out the other side, with the rest of the goblins following them. The only solution is to flood it with lava, and that's the problem my magma tunnelers idea would solve. Also, the goblins should just build a bridge over the trench. It could be makeshift, and have a chance of collapsing every time a goblin walks over it, but otherwise it would be as simple as tossing a 2x8 across the gap. And it would be a nice touch if the goblins brought their own catapults, that would fire at your walls until they hit one section enough times to destroy it, allowing the goblins to simply walk through.
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Idiom

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2008, 06:22:01 pm »

I hate invulnerable forts. I play DF to build an amazingly complex fort, but I also play to see it implode horrendously (which hasn't happened since the 2D version).
I want more internal threats. Such as from rivers, chasms, and basically a threat from all map features. They shouldn't be all that serious, but they should be capable of starting a chain of events that brings down the whole place. Sieges can't even do that anymore.

I like the idea of limited tunneling, but most importantly #1 construction destroying sieges and #2 a reliance on the topside. Each fort needs some reason to have access to the surface (probably based on regional needs). So 1: sieges actually mean something, and 2: you actually an achilles heel to be gnawed on.

Also, why will an artificial chasm stop diggers? That's what a few enemy field engineers and a bridge is for.
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ogion

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2008, 06:52:55 pm »

On the defender's side, I'd like to see an option to designate a target area for my 'pults, starting off with an area of say 8x8 (random hit each shot, any of the 64 squares with th epossibility to lob several stones in the same square in succession type of deal), and as the machine is enhanced in quality, you'd be able to sharpshoot within a 1x2 area with the best available 'pult.

Also, I'd like to see more controllable military behaviour on the dwarves:

1)
Squad set-up:
4 archers
4 spears
4 hammers/maces/axes

The archers flank out as the close quarter fighters engage, backed up by spears one tile behind

2) Formations
* Line
* Square
* Wedge forward
* Wedge backwards

3) Posts
* Station one sentry
* Gets relieved by new sentry before snoozing or boozing
* Raises alert within squad and gets backup if hostile is detected

Just a few suggestions
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Jreengus

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2008, 07:02:37 pm »

What I'd like to see really is something along the following lines:
1. Traps horribly nerfed, max 1 weapon per weapon trap 60% chance to stick 10% chance for goblin to dodge (Varied based on agility)
2. Not goblin bridge builders per-se (sp?) but rather goblin hole fillers, maybe they will chop down a couple of trees and lay them across chasm but with moats they will just fill them up with debris (Which could be quickly mined again by your miners. If you have included a chasm in your defence the primitive bridges across it should eventually colapse. (Possibly as the Goblins charge across if they are unlucky)
3. Goblin catapults firing explosive/enchanted (Take you pick) balls which can destroy buildings and blast holes in ANY one wide wall, these wouldn't be mined out tiles but rather a hole big enough to allow a single prone creature through at a time, they should be able to be designated to be repaired which would take one peice of building material and leave the wall identical to how it wa before (But with any engravings destroyed)

Combined I think few forts will be invincible but it should be fairly easy to create a realistic well sure you can charge in here but by the time you get past my defences you will be easy to finish off kind of fort.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 03:53:44 am by thatguyyaknow »
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Captain Failmore

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2008, 07:53:04 pm »

Ways to Make Surviving Sieges Harder -

Refined Fungiculture -

Current underground farming methods for producing crops that dwarfs favor do not require a substrate other than muddy earth. Fertilization is unnecessary; the mushrooms spring from the muck and in overgenerous quantities year after year. Aside from the obvious and well known issue of farming requiring far too few people and far too little space for what it yields, dwarfish fungiculture requires no raw materials to be successful in spite of actual fungiculture typically requiring a nutritive substrate (natural or otherwise) and lots of care. This means that it's completely possible and extremely preferable to make vaulted fortress farms immune to outside attack, because you don't actually have to go outside for anything, least of all food.

A solution to this could be to make fertilizer a necessary component of fungiculture. (Personally, I think this should be done for reasons besides making sieges harder, especially if dwarfs had distinct methods of growing things that set them apart.) Potash, compost, slabs of wood, flour, offal and carcasses, whole unprocessed plants; all of that could and should have to be used to make those plants grow underground. While green plants may grow in passable quantities unaided on the surface, to grow any underground plants at all should require fertilizers of some kind in the very least, and possibly a specialized growing structure for certain more valuable or more tenable crops. (For example, stacks of irrigated wood slabs could be used to grow certain crops for a few years before turning into compost. The compost could then be used as fertilizer for different crops for another season.)

This means you're in a bit of a predicament if you want to make a growing vault. Your fertilizer source has to be steady to produce crops underground for more than a couple seasons. That means heading outside, gathering materials, and bringing them back to the fortress intact. While it's also possible to make relatively safe growing areas for surface flora as well, they would require sunlight - and therefore, openings into your fortress an attacker could potentially exploit.

Of course, there could be exceptions to this. If you come into a mineral source of fertilizer such as nitrate deposits or sunken masses of peat, you might never have to forage outside again. By chipping away at it a tiny bit each season you could keep your farms running for years, even decades if you have a large enough deposit(s) to work with. Another medium-to-low quality fertilizer for certain fungi could be silt from a riverbed. Having access to an underground river in particular would be highly advantageous as it would supply you with a constant flow of silt and water, letting you grow at least some crops underground so long as the river remains safe to use. None the less, to get the most out of your farm and the widest variety of crops, fertilizers should be necessary. (What if certain valued fungus crops grew only on wood or surface flour, for instance? What if silt fertilizers only produced marginal yields of crops, requiring that you make a special effort to keep the fortress alive on that alone?)

Pollution Mechanics That Favor Open Air -

In another recent thread I conveyed my vision of a good pollution system, complete with a temperature-like pollution flow. Without going into nearly so much detail, stagnant air should lose quality quicker and refresh slower. (That is, pockets of air that don't interact with the outside should retain pollution much longer.) While dwarfs could be well adapted to poor air quality, it should still eventually cause problems for them in the form of heightened pollution, leading to unhappy thoughts and higher susceptibility to disease. (For other reasons such as the absence of wind and rain, tiles indoors contaminated with nasty things already linger for a longer span of time, and should pose a greater threat to the general health due to that fact.)

To hamper the spread of disease and keep your fortress healthy, ventilation should be necessary, which again opens you to attack by forcing you to poke holes in your fortress ever so often. The good news is that these ducts would be easy to defend, but the bad news is that if especially formidable or crafty baddies found their way in, you might wind up with an air duct full of sapped traps or worse. Vertical air shafts could become garbage chutes for saboteurs who would then drop payloads into your fortress from above. ("Dorf Dorfington cancels task; interrupted by flesh eating beetle swarm.") Even if your fortress is rock solid, security comes at a price.

Aggressive Cave Adaptation -

A relatively minor suggestion; cave adaptation should produce somewhat more harmful symptoms. Minor decline in eyesight, somewhat heightened vulnerability to disease, minor depression, that sort of thing. While this doesn't have a truly colossal impact on the survivability of your fortress over the short term, over the long term (along with the issue of pollution, hunger, and attackers using contaminants as a weapon) having a fortress full of cave adapted dwarfs would be harmful overall. At best, they're simply somewhat unwell folk going about their business until a good sortie breaks the siege, making it a manageable problem. If you can set aside a protected sunlit place the siege can't attack for everyone to congregate in on a regular basis, the problem won't even exist. On the other hand they could be a plague waiting to happen, which could be very bad if their cave adaptation is aggravating problems already caused by hunger, injuries, and poor sanitation.

Making Sieges More Aggressive -

Siege Engineers -

Military builders and miners that don't act as civilians, can fight, and will continue working under pressure from the enemy. They could build siege works, engineer ways to get into your fortress, or just dig their way in given enough time. The diggers in particular would make guard dogs very useful. ("The war dog is acting strange," followed by, "The war dog senses danger!" An animal trying to alert its owner to the presence of odd noises could move to the spot where noise is being detected. High quantities of vermin could generate occasional false positives.)

Saboteurs -

Sneaky little bastards that behave much like thieves do already, only they actively take stock of your traps, secretly damage them and other pieces of machinery if possible, and leave behind lovely things like noxious smoke bombs and vials of poison for your water supply. Assassins could follow, secretly wreaking havoc on your fortress by going after anyone who looks important with poison darts and crossbows.

Better Siege Engines -

Moving siege towers to send invaders leaping over your walls? Horse-drawn catapult carts? Trolls with battering rams taped to their fists? Yes we can! Giving the catapults better things to fire such as pots of burning tallow, rotting carcasses, and baskets of caltrops would be a nice touch.

Kaiju and Other Creative Ways of Bringing Fortresses to Ruin -

Nothing says 'I want you dead' more than unleashing a giant monster on your opponent's fortress. That Bronze Colossus is a way of telling the world you mean business. Cages full of dangerous animals, swarms of irritating or dangerous insects, and untamed monsters could be dropped into a fortress by the enemy to spread destruction, disease, and general ill will all around. As though they needed to be more aggressive, demons could enlist the aid of imps and other nasty creatures by causing them to appear from nowhere around your fortress from time to time once they've risen from their pits, and could continue to do so until vanquished. You might want to keep those crossbows ready.
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Tormy

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Re: No more invincible forts
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2008, 08:12:44 pm »

Tunnelers in general I don't like.

..and?  ::)
If it would be added, you could remove it from the RAWs easily.
Diggers/tunnelers would be an awesome feature in the game. Definitely a must have. That is my opinion.  :)
[..but again this has been suggested countless times already.  ;)]

One more time....I think that these features would make the sieges quite challenging:

- Siege engines [Toady will work on this in the upcoming weeks]
- Diggers/Tunnelers [Special units -> digging tunnels into the player's fortress]
- Bridge Builders [Special units -> constructing bridges over the moats]
- "Mechanics" [Special units -> they are able to spot + disable the traps]
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 08:23:44 pm by Tormy »
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