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[GlyphGryph]

Since crossbows are just so damn good, rather than high quality weapons improving the users skills, why not just make it so the user shoots at their skill level OR the skill level equal to (the quality of the weapon + the quality of the ammo), whichever is lower.

A legendary dwarf with a crossbow that shoots wildly and has bent bolts isn't going to be making perfect shots.

Someone who's never shot before with a masterwork crossbow isn't likely to load a dozen bolts into goblins at 12 tiles, every one a hit.

Also, is weapon reload speed affected by weapon quality, or is that just skill level?

[Neonivek]

is weapon reload speed affected by weapon quality, or is that just skill level?

Neither, a Crossbow reloads instantly allowing it to have rapid fire.

As for the rest of the post... Ill have to think about it

[eerr]

the problem is that firing speed is skill-dependant

max the dwarf firing rate, and it will be completely balanced

unlike weapon skills, that use only weapon quality(including shields!)

[Fieari]

I was thinking that instead of Weapon + Ammo, it'd be (Weapon + Ammo) / 2 in order to have the average between the two.  After all, a bent bolt would make the finest crossbow miss more often, and the perfect bolt coming out of a crummy bow wouldn't do very well either.

But then I considered that a crummy bow in the hands of a master would be better than a perfect bow in the hands of an amateur, so why not average all three together instead of making it a limiter? In fact, I'd go so far as to weight skill double, so that it'd be ((Skill*2) + Weapon + Ammo) / 4 for the value.

[Neonivek]

Of course don't forget that many gunslingers with amazing aim are people who can instinctively compensate for the lack of quality in their weapon after which a "Perfect" weapon wouldn't be needed.

Of course this doesn't include weapons that shoot in random dirrections everytime. Only ones that consistantly go in a specific wrong dirrection

[Tormy]

There is only one problem with ranged weapons -> the insanely high rate of fire.
The rate of fire must be "nerfed", and we won't have too many problems after that point. Don't forget...
1. We gonna have body layers -> more realistic damage "calculation" and wounds
2. Arrows/bolts will "work" differently -> 11/08/2008 update: Positions and relations for body parts within their parent body part to give wounds a chance to seem more reasonable instead of being sort of loopity loopy paths around the parent part made by a supposedly straight object, and some other morph bookkeeping

[Pilsu]

If the rate of fire is drastically lowered, you have to remember to increase the range quite a bit or they're not worth using anymore

[Aquillion]

I don't think this is a good idea.  First, balancing ranged weapons should wait until there's a larger effort to balance weapons -- the game simply isn't balanced right now, and that's that.

Second, this would mean that the best crossbowdwarf in the world, armed with a shoddy crossbow + bolts, is not even the slightest bit better than a barely-trained recruit.  That is both unintuitive and, in my mind, silly.

(Third, of course, I kind of like having bows and crossbows so deadly.  Dwarf Fortress is supposed to be deadly.  An accurate crossbow is every bit as deadly in real life.  Now, thrown vomit and coins, not so much...  although it would be cool if the existing deadliness of thrown weapons was retained for legendary throwers.  It's fun to be awesome at something, when your character actually has awesome-level skills; I would be disappointed if the ability to throw a coin at someone and have them fly back twenty feet, hit the wall, and cause their chest to explode in a fine shower of gore was taken out.  It should just be reserved for the legendary thrower who will be remembered for generations.)

An adventurer who enters a goblin fortress unprepared can frequently get pincushioned immediately; I like that.  There was a story a while back about someone who slew a dragon by incapacitating it with his first lucky spear toss, then choking the dying beast to death.  I think all those things should still be in the game (although that throw should require a fairly heroic-tier character or extreme luck); they're a big part of the Dwarf Fortress setting to me.

[Draco18s]

But I want to be able to throw water and kill people.

God should add that in in the next release of Real Life (now...where do I make the suggestion?).

[Hoborobo234]

A poor workman blames his tools

[Random832]

(Third, of course, I kind of like having bows and crossbows so deadly.  Dwarf Fortress is supposed to be deadly.  An accurate crossbow is every bit as deadly in real life.  Now, thrown vomit and coins, not so much...  although it would be cool if the existing deadliness of thrown weapons was retained for legendary throwers.  It's fun to be awesome at something, when your character actually has awesome-level skills; I would be disappointed if the ability to throw a coin at someone and have them fly back twenty feet, hit the wall, and cause their chest to explode in a fine shower of gore was taken out.  It should just be reserved for the legendary thrower who will be remembered for generations.)

There are also physical limits - no matter how much energy you pump into that pig tail sock, it's going to lose it rather quickly (and at some point, even if we grant that a legendary thrower has supernatural strength rather than just being really really good, it'll burn up rather than simply slowing down and dropping to the ground)

A coin, on the other hand, is compact enough that it could act like a bullet given sufficient kinetic energy.

[Techhead]

A coin, on the other hand, is compact enough that it could act like a bullet given sufficient kinetic energy.

Yes, but I doubt even a legendary thrower could toss an object at that velocity.

E_k=1/2mv²

So for a coin with the approximate mass of a bullet to have a kinetic energy similar to that of a bullet, it would need to moving at similar speeds.

Also, conservation of momentum means that you would feel the same change in momentum as the person getting hit by the coin, although you would likely be able to counteract it better against the ground.

[Neonivek]

"Second, this would mean that the best crossbowdwarf in the world, armed with a shoddy crossbow + bolts, is not even the slightest bit better than a barely-trained recruit.  That is both unintuitive and, in my mind, silly"

your kinda using "Game Logic".

In the real world the best Crossbowmen in the world excluding supernatural prowress couldn't fire for beans using a shoddy Crossbow in the same way that a Flute player couldn't play for beans if his flute only had two holes.

Of course then again, when you delve into "Supernaturally good" you get things such as people playing a lute that has been destroyed by holding the strings between one hand and your foot and using your other hand... Or tossing grains of sand to break someone's head open.

[Aquillion]

A coin, on the other hand, is compact enough that it could act like a bullet given sufficient kinetic energy.

Yes, but I doubt even a legendary thrower could toss an object at that velocity.

E_k=1/2mv²

So for a coin with the approximate mass of a bullet to have a kinetic energy similar to that of a bullet, it would need to moving at similar speeds.

Also, conservation of momentum means that you would feel the same change in momentum as the person getting hit by the coin, although you would likely be able to counteract it better against the ground.

My view is that someone with a legendary skill and superdwarven stats should be able to push the limits of what's possible, at least a little.  Those people are like the heroes of the ancient world.

[dizzyelk]

There is only one problem with ranged weapons -> the insanely high rate of fire.
The rate of fire must be "nerfed", and we won't have too many problems after that point.

The rate of fire for x-bows should be tied to strength, maybe allow the addition of a mechanism to the x-bow to have a standard rof independent of strength.