Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[SolarShado]

I'm sticking with ASCII primarily because I'm too lazy to set up a graphics set. I'm accustomed to the ASCII. While I see the point that many people here have made for better graphics support, I don't mind one bit. If i see a tile i don't recognize, I hit the spacebar.

IMO, the only reason too add ASCII at this point is to increase the number of players and therefore donators.

On the actual implementation of sepereating gfx from txt:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm only a Novice Coder, and I've parely looked at the raws, but i see the raws using strings to reference which tile to use for display. Of course, I can only guess, but it seems currently that there is absolutely no easy way to distinguish whether that "O" is part of a wall or part of a name/etc. I highly doubt that the change would be trivial.

Just IMHO.

[Jreengus]

"IMHO" - A sure sign neither the person nor the opinion is humble.

EDIT: Maybe that came across a bit nasty, so I apologise. Just that that particular abreviation bugs me slightly.

[SolarShado]

I just wanted ot contribute my thoughts without starting/joining a flamewar.

I agree that both sides have made perfectly valid points. I tend to agree that Toady should spend more time on gameplay or what-have-you rather than graphics support because I don't have a problem with the current graphics (or lack thereof). HOWEVER, I can't deny that more people would play (and therefore donate) if there was something less intimidating that ASCII to play with.

Naturally, it's up to Toady in the end. And I have no real say because I have never donated

[Qmarx]

"IMHO" - A sure sign neither the person nor the opinion is humble.

EDIT: Maybe that came across a bit nasty, so I apologise. Just that that particular abreviation bugs me slightly.

I always used it as "In My Honest Opinion".

[Random832]

"IMHO" - A sure sign neither the person nor the opinion is humble.

Not as such, I think - it suffers from the same problem as "With all due respect" - it apologizes for the statement it modifies, so it's universally attached to statements that would not be seen as humble (or respectful) otherwise presented.

[Aquillion]

One reason to improve tile support sooner rather than later:  The sooner people can get to work on better tiles, the more tilesets will be created in the long run.

I know it isn't a problem for people here, but I've seen (on many forums) people saying that they'd play Dwarf Fortress if only it had a somewhat 'better' graphical presentation.  Just allowing tilesets to change the appearance of map features without changing the alphabet would be a huge improvement.  Allowing tiles to be specifically set in the raw files (so you can have a specific tile for monster type XYZ) would be even better.

Yes, tiles will never capture absolutely every bit of detail, but it has the potential to be a big improvement for some players.  Not everyone likes ASCII.  That doesn't make them lowly cretins unworthy of consideration; it means different people have different tastes.

(Although, I do have to say:  It is also possible to have a graphical presentation for Dwarf Fortress that is superior in terms of information conveyed than the ASCII one we have now.  The limited ability to see things on lower Z-levels, the fact that clouds completely obscure anything in the square, and -- when lighting is in -- giving a rough sense of light levels/color, where light is originating from, and so on are all relatively simple things to convey with a pseudo-tileset.  Perhaps this should wait until then, but saying "Oh, ASCII is just fine" avoids the issue that, yes, there is the potential for genuine advantages in a more detailed system.  I don't care about the rest, but being able to actually see large numbers of Z-levels effectively would be a huge improvement for me.)

[Random832]

(Although, I do have to say:  It is also possible to have a graphical presentation for Dwarf Fortress that is superior in terms of information conveyed than the ASCII one we have now.  The limited ability to see things on lower Z-levels, the fact that clouds completely obscure anything in the square, and -- when lighting is in -- giving a rough sense of light levels/color, where light is originating from, and so on are all relatively simple things to convey with a pseudo-tileset.  Perhaps this should wait until then, but saying "Oh, ASCII is just fine" avoids the issue that, yes, there is the potential for genuine advantages in a more detailed system.  I don't care about the rest, but being able to actually see large numbers of Z-levels effectively would be a huge improvement for me.)

I think improved tile coloration, translucent overlays, etc (which can work equally well with ascii as with a tileset) are a different task than graphical tilesets; though both are presentation type stuff.

[Jreengus]

A lot of people here seem to be saying increased graphical support would be a good thing because it would allow more people to get into the game. Yet no-one has explained why that is a good thing. Toady certainly doesn't need the additional donations this would bring, and whilst he might appreciate them he is not making Dwarf Fortress to make money he is making it because that is what he enjoys doing. If money was what mattered to him then he would still be working as a mathematician rather than living off donations. Ultimately Dwarf Fortress is more in the way a gift than a normal game, Toady allows those who want to to play it but he hasn't set out to create a game that lots of people will play.

[Zoal]

Just what we need, the elitist argument...

[Swiftfreddy]

To put it short, I want more gameplay features rather than amazing graphics. But if you have read the OP properly you would see that he isn't asking for better graphics, just to differentiate text graphics from In-game graphics so you don't get funny symbols in names etc (If I myself have read the OP right xD). To seperate the text and graphic files and overall improve the diversity of the current graphics scheme. This is in the Dev notes already but I think each note does need a nicely explained thread to it anyway. (And not everyone wants to look through all the dev notes :/ ).

[Toady One]

Hi, I got a report on this thread.  Please try to keep things civil.  KaelGotDwarves, I think your post was the first to go really out of line, but there were plenty of problems with tone prior to that.

There have been a few more reports lately, so I've posted some guidelines to help people out.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Yet no-one has explained why that is a good thing. Toady certainly doesn't need the additional donations this would bring, and whilst he might appreciate them he is not making Dwarf Fortress to make money he is making it because that is what he enjoys doing.

Its wonderful that DF is provided too us for free and is supported by donations, but your being very short sighted to think that this not a very fragile state of affairs.  Donations are very ephemeral and can dry up quickly especially in tough economic times.  Ignoring new players or actively discouraging them as the elitists would have us do is a death sentence in the long run.  I find it appalling that so many people want development intentionally steered away from addressing the most significant barriers to entry for newbies so that the game will remain a niche product and satisfy their elitist snobbery.  That is not how a game or any sort should be created, fresh eyes are critical to questioning prior assumptions and providing feed back on what the games strengths and weaknesses are.  New players are critical thats why any kind of game beta testing will add new testers though out the course of the beta, you simply must have fresh-eyes look at the game constantly to prevent stagnation and being biased by the earlier versions.  When a donation based revenue stream is also involved that counts double.

[GlyphGryph]

jaybud4
Sorry if us players who aren't as financially well off as yourself can't afford nice graphics cards (which for me would mean a new laptop). I suffer severe slowdown from the graphics for whatever reason (thank goodness I discovered the GFPS cap, but guess what? Not every player is going to get so lucky. I went through quite a few optimization discussions before finding mention of it). There's no need to act like a dismissive jerk about it - your opinions are no more important than any other player's and its nice to keep that in mind. The derision is unnecessary.

The one person who's opinion really IS important is Toady, and although I would love the ability to better customize my graphics I understand I'll have to wait for him to finish off all of his higher priority stuff first. All I can really do is let him know there's one more person who eagerly awaits that day.

Plus there are some nice programs in the works that will probably do this before Toady does, so I'm keeping an eye open for those too.

[Sergius]

I'm sorry, I'm all for defending the traditional values of pure ASCII, but I fail to see how NOT having more people getting into the game is a good thing.

Anyone can argue that the effort spent into coding it is not worth it compared to the amount of new blood Toady is going to get by doing it, but it takes a strange mind to actually NOT want any new people that like graphics getting into the game.

Are we getting into anti-"spreading the DF wealth" territory here? Do people think that the more people play Dwarf Fortress, the less Dwarf Fortress will there be for everybody? This is just weird. Are we being 'socialists' by wishing for more players? Is DF supposed to be an elitist game and stay an elitist game forever even if bringing it "to the masses" doesn't imply a loss of quality?

Does it mean that making room for better graphics is just as bad as "palin' around" with the pro-graphics terrorists that hate America's youth?

[Osmosis Jones]

Does it mean that making room for better graphics is just as bad as "palin' around" with the pro-graphics terrorists that hate America's youth?

The spinning *bad pun* strikes the forum in the thread. The thread explodes in gore. The forum has been struck down.



On topic;

Like I said earlier, I'm happy with ASCII. Hence I derive no real value from the graphics updates, and would much rather the time is spent on the current arc.  If Toady can seperate the various characters used in different applications easily and quickly, go for it. However, I have a strange feeling that this is going to be a long and painful task.

Hence, I look it as this; we take a significant chunk of time off developing something that is going to be enjoyed by all (seriously, army arc + adventurer skills? I might just get me a credit card so I can actually donate), to spend it instead on something that is going to be enjoyed by maybe half the population? I'd rather not.

Toady will get around to it eventually. However, let it happen when it happens, don't try and rush it in (and probably introduce a whole swath of new bugs in the process).

I understand this will probably be at odds with several people, but meh, it's how I feel about the subject.