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[Tormy]

Tilesets don't give you any more information though, really. The most they do is make some assumptions about how some items/creatures look, which I guess can be annoying, but is ignorable.

Being able to tell the difference between a goblin wrestler and a mountain goat is kind of useful.

Seriously, as much as ASCII has the magnificent benefit of forcing you to use your imagination, I'm baffled with the lies that its defenders will sometimes come up with.

Hehe, it's funny. We have lot of threads like this already, but IIRC all of those threads turned into some "ASCII is fine learn to play" mini-flamewars. 
Anyway, here is my opinion again:
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=26770.msg321777#msg321777

[Danaru]

I like ascii
tilesets are good too, I don't use them myself, but I don't look down on them, it's still dwarf fortress

but if you're going to get toady to use up his precious time on something un-necessary just for the sake of looking good, not much of the community will support you.

seriously, graphics are DEAD LAST on my list of "what I want toady to do next"

[Zoal]

Danaru,

Why is THE BARE MINIMUM so hard to grasp? Don't you get it...

[DJ]

    1 - Yes, graphics support for items, terrain and so on, and it's not possible at the moment to attain a separation from the text for anything aside from creatures.

Wait, what? As much as I hate to say bad things about DF, I have to say this is a very bad design. Modularity is a cornerstone of OOP, so unless Toady is writing DF C-style I just can't understand why he did it this way.

[Tormy]

but if you're going to get toady to use up his precious time on something un-necessary just for the sake of looking good, not much of the community will support you.

Wait what?
You probably never realized, that those people who "cannot play" with DF because of the ASCII display..well they are probably not even registered on the forum, or they are just lurking around occasionally.

Also, take a look at this poll:
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=26770.0

I used to play in ASCII but now that I've tried graphics I couldn't get back to it  22 (10.8%)
I couldn't get into the game before I've tried a full graphics set  29 (14.3%)
Until a proper graphics support is included, I'm playing in ASCII  37 (18.2%)
I refuse to play the game until proper graphics are included  4 (2%)

Hardcore ASCII fans:
I play with an unmoded ASCII character set and always will  59 (29.1%)

Note:
I consider these voters as "neutrals"  :
I have a slightly modded ASCII set and/or some creature graphics  35 (17.2%)
I play with and without graphics, depends on my mood  12 (5.9%)

[Danaru]

maybe I'm the wrong one here, but considering how many people play dwarf fortress just fine without anything added (or even those that just use third party graphic packs), I can't bring myself to consider a graphics upgrade by toady "necessary"

sure, it would be NICE to have separate font and tileset entities, but I would hardly call it "A bare minimum"

"Bare Minimum" implies the least amount necessary to work, and ascii seems to work just fine for quite a few people. I really can't support Toady spending time on this when he could be improving gameplay.

[Sabin Stargem]

In my opinion, graphics ARE a part of gameplay.  They present information in a way that is digestible and pretty to look at.  This is the most basic and important cornerstone of any game, since understanding what is going on will dictate how the player responds to the game.  ASCII doesn't present itself as friendly to most people, and the limitations of that format is going to hold back Dwarf Fortress in the long run.

[Tormy]

sure, it would be NICE to have separate font and tileset entities, but I would hardly call it "A bare minimum"

Well separating txt/gfx is the bare minimum in order to have some proper gfx in the game, and not only some creature tilesets.
There is no other way. I am not sure that how much time will that take to code it in at all...and that when will it happen. I guess that many people are waiting for this for quite a long time now, and I am pretty sure that they can wait more...at least I can. 

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

Learn to embrace the ASCII. 

One of us.
One of us.
One of us.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Yet another thread ware people shoot down any improvement in the games graphics.

It seems to me at least half the people on this forum are ASCII fetishists who would rather die then see the games graphics changed in any way, and they just shout down everyone else.  Do people realize that their is a feed-back going on here?  The vast majority of potential fans of DF uninstall it after the first look at the screen and fewer still make it much further.  Eventually the ASCII fetish crowd dominates the fan base and resists upgrading.  ASCII characters are used for only one reason, lack of a graphic artist in the development team.  I personally think the developers are making a big mistake by putting graphics and UI dead last in their development scheme and the current fan base is encouraging that mis-prioritizing.  If you really want DF to move forward then encourage the dev's to prioritize graphics and UI, that will bring in more beta tests, bug reports, donations and suggestions.

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

Yet another thread ware people shoot down any improvement in the games graphics.

It seems to me at least half the people on this forum are ASCII fetishists who would rather die then see the games graphics changed in any way, and they just shout down everyone else.  Do people realize that their is a feed-back going on here?  The vast majority of potential fans of DF uninstall it after the first look at the screen and fewer still make it much further.  Eventually the ASCII fetish crowd dominates the fan base and resists upgrading.  ASCII characters are used for only one reason, lack of a graphic artist in the development team.  I personally think the developers are making a big mistake by putting graphics and UI dead last in their development scheme and the current fan base is encouraging that mis-prioritizing.  If you really want DF to move forward then encourage the dev's to prioritize graphics and UI, that will bring in more beta tests, bug reports, donations and suggestions.

If you put graphics first, you generally get a lousy game.
By that rule, by putting graphics last, toady will create the best game in the world.

That and I love the ASCII now, and I actually quite like the UI.

[Zoal]

The devs aren't putting it dead last. It's simply a case of Nosism.
This is where ASCII graphics "individuals" seem to "speak for the whole community." They assume the collective "we."

nosism (NO-siz-em) noun
The use of 'we' in referring to oneself.

"Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we'."
Mark Twain

"We must avoid both egoism and nosism in order to realize the glory of humanity."
J. Odera Oruka

[Mephansteras]

I simply agree with Toady on this issue. By putting off graphics, he will have a game that only needs it's graphics and UI done ONCE. If he does more graphics stuff now, he's just making more work for himself later on as new things he adds in break the existing graphics capabilities. By using ASCII, he allows lots of things to be simply shoved off into a corner to be dealt with when things stop changing so much.

I'm not against Dwarf Fortress having graphics. I am, however, against Toady spending lots of time on graphics stuff that will just delay future releases of the game even more as he has to fix all the graphics issues whenever he does major changes to the game.

Now, if Toady comes out and says that splitting the font and graphics pieces apart is simple and he doesn't think it'll hurt future developments, fine. Until then, I'm of the opinion that his time is better spent elsewhere.

[Sunday]

The devs aren't putting it dead last. It's simply a case of Nosism.
This is where ASCII graphics "individuals" seem to "speak for the whole community." They assume the collective "we."

nosism (NO-siz-em) noun
The use of 'we' in referring to oneself.

"Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we'."
Mark Twain

"We must avoid both egoism and nosism in order to realize the glory of humanity."
J. Odera Oruka

We think that's nonsense!   

Seriously, though, though I don't mind the ASCII graphics, I'm not opposed to new graphics.  However, I think Mephansteras's excellent post just above mine does illustrate just what the logic is behind not working on graphics right now.

Also, I gather Slaves to Armok died partly because of the focus on graphics.  And I really, really don't want DF to die.

[Tormy]

Also, I gather Slaves to Armok died partly because of the focus on graphics.  And I really, really don't want DF to die.

This is making no sense, even if that is true. Why? Because in DF Toady won't have to draw a single dwarf image even. Separating text + graphics is NOT means, that Toady will have work on the graphics itself. IIRC in Armok I. Toady was working on the 3D graphics himself. The vanilla DF game will be ASCII forever probably. Modders/gfx fans will make the graphical images for the game. Just think about the creature tilesets.