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[zagibu]

Isn't that exactly what he was saying?

[Mikademus]

I personally know plenty of bodybuilders that would make quantum physicists look like 3rd graders.

Isn't that how it usually is? In fact, most quantum and theoretical physicists I know are built like 3rd graders.

RPG in a video game usually means 'character level system overshadows player skill', at least to me.

Erm, player skill in RPG games? If there is a gaming genre, which doesn't require any "skill", that must be the RPGs. It has nothing to do with the char level system at all imo.

Gothic had a nice thing going before bombing; in those games your character learned new weapon combos with experience and training, but it was still up to you the player to fighting game-style perform them.

[Sareth]

Is that... an elephant-demon?

You know what would be awesome? If demons stopped being unique creatures, and started being a prefix akin to skeletal and undead. They would be just like the original creatures but 100x deadlier and more malevolent.

[Aquillion]

I completely and viciously disagree with everything the original post said about magic.  That was a long-winded, rambling rant about Dungeons and Dragons with no relevance to Dwarf Fortress whatsoever.

"Class balance" between fighters, rangers, mages, etc. belongs in Dungeons and Dragons, where you have your typical four-person party and don't want anyone to overshadow anyone else.  It is not something that should even be mentioned for Dwarf Fortress; it is stupefyingly irrelevant.  (Likewise, the assumption that magic is an intelligence-based thing is very Dungeons and Dragons.  I assume that Dwarf Fortress Wizards will be more like Tolkien's wizards -- a separate race all on their own, akin to demigods.)

Magic in Dwarf Fortress should not be a 'better option in fights' than swordfighting, no.  It shouldn't be worse than swordfighting, or equal to swordfighting, or even remotely comparable to swordfighting.  The difference between a master swordsman and a "Wizard Tower"-mode style wizard in Dwarf Fortress should be the difference between a broadsword and an atomic bomb. 

This isn't a matter of weak vs. strong or intellect or anything stupid like that.  Whether it comes from innate ability or study or artifacts or whatever, magic should feel magical.  It should accomplish things that simply cannot be accomplished in any other way, and in the hands of the more powerful magical creatures it should be a force that 'normal' defenses like swords and armor cannot even hope to begin fighting against.

I do not think that 'high-end' magic should be available for typical adventurers, of course.  It's magic.  It should be rare and powerful, depending on hundreds of years of study, ancient secrets passed down to a select few, the favor of ancient demons and gods, a hidden bloodline or things along those lines.  Only the weakest magical trinkets and simplest charms are available to most people.

But suggesting that magic should be shoehorned into a progression that exactly matches that of a swordsman is stupid.  This is not Dungeons and Dragons; there isn't another nerd pretending to be a barbarian on the other side of the table whose feelings we have to worry about.  In Adventurer and Dwarf mode, there should only be hints of magic -- trinkets, simple charms and spells, the occasional artifact and so on.  But when a player starts up in true magic-centric mode, they should be playing what is basically a different game, with different challenges and an entirely separate game balance.

When the player starts up a game in Wizard Tower mode, they should be at a totally different power level than where they are in Dwarf Mode or Adventurer Mode.  It should be something absolutely incomparable, with abilities immediately at their fingers from the start of the game that even the best adventurer-mode swordsman could spend his entire life without ever getting anywhere near (absent, perhaps, artifacts, deities, and a few other magical sources.)  Wizard Tower should be a completely different game, with a power scale totally disconnected from the other modes.

Likewise, wizards as opponents in Adventurer or Dwarf mode should be completely overwhelming.  Having a proper wizard as 'just another opponent' on the battlefield detracts from what makes magic mystical and interesting -- there might be a few low-class charmspinners and battlemages, people who've picked up or inherited simple magical tricks, but one of the rare true wizards should be enough to turn an entire battlefield on their own, at least as strong as a Megabeast at their height.

Essentially, what I want out of Wizard Tower mode is the ability to play the evil warlock or necromancer, the Big Bad who terrorizes an entire region of the world and repeatedly fights off both armies and bands of adventurers sent to get his head.  I want to challenge gods for supremacy, and remake the landscape with my magical might.  I don't think it should just be a dull D&D-style or JRPG-style wizard, who is just another body in a four-person party throwing around fires or heals instead of arrows.

[Captain Failmore]

I completely and viciously disagree with everything the original post said about magic.  That was a long-winded, rambling rant about Dungeons and Dragons with no relevance to Dwarf Fortress whatsoever.

And yet some of your sentiments mirror mine. Funny how that works.

Re-read the post. Specifically, "Magic absolutely should not make the game look like this," and, "These simply aren't traditions worth keeping. Smart people are already valuable enough in Dwarf Fortress, and they're only going to become more valuable as new versions come out... They don't need to be validated any further through patently broken 'traditional' game mechanics, and I don't care how awesome an army of wizards with a mastery of the devilish art of 'Power Word Fuck You' would be..." While I disagree with you on the point of power and scope, that little list at the end should indicate that we feel the same about at least a few things regarding magic-users. (Rarity being one of them. When the extraordinary becomes ordinary, 'magic' it is not.)

At what point in this entire thread did it appear to you that I was endorsing the regressive trends of niche oriented class supremacy and so-called 'balance' that plague fantasy themed games to this day? I'd say it was probably somewhere in the middle of my original post, where it appears you may have stopped reading because you reached a premature conclusion regarding its message. My complaint was that in most games, especially high fantasy themed video games, STR characters are made to be totally reliant on INT and DEX characters because they are explicitly designed to be ineffective in most situations. (Often the reverse is true only when dealing with things that can't be expediently nuked, in which case the STR character becomes a convenient diversion.) That combined with the other broader considerations to be made regarding commonplace wizards ("Magic should not represent a significant industry.") means that in short, the game should shy away from the four-class party mechanic.

Also, like it or not that rambling rant of mine applies to much more than Dungeons and Dragons; it applies to trends affecting the entire fantasy genre that date back just as far as and were in their infancy popularized by Dungeons and Dragons. Trends that I feel the game should absolutely avoid. Not only do they compromise innovation in game mechanics and any notion of real party balance, they're founded in part on ideals, imagery, and biases that are fundamentally wrong. ("The warrior should be ineffective because he's dumb and slow," instead of, "The wizard should be better because he's a one in a million supernatural freak.")

Looking at things from your viewpoint, if a wizard in his tower happens to be one bad motherfucker, he shouldn't be a common adventurer at all. All other things remaining true, if magic actually happens to be a very, very effective means of getting things done, I would think that a wizard in that setting would be regarded as a high ranking advisory figure or leader in his domain of choice, not another 'unit' in the fortress. (Contrast with my thoughts that the wizard should not be godly but instead provide varied services that are advantageous but not game-breaking to the average dwarf, but I admit there's much wiggle room here given the setting and multiple ways that magic could potentially work. On top of that, I recall Toady stating that said multiple ways of working might coexist in the same world. Maybe the wizard is just a seer that advises the king or a humble custodian of magic seals that keep evil creatures away, or on the other extreme, a mortal demigod that spends his days fending off superstitious assassins and lending his services to the kingdoms for an immodest fee.) Regardless as to whether he's weak or strong, his powers should not be designed simply so he conveniently fits into a party of four.

The real and final point is that the party of four mechanic sucks dicks and exists in no small part as a means to allow nerds to circle-jerk with one another while the one guy that doesn't have superpowers gets the shit kicked out of him. That point of view is compatible with low magic and high magic alike.

[Aquillion]

Yeah, but I didn't understand why you went into that extended rant about D&D classes and how we're all obsessed with smart guys and all that at all.

I do think that wizards who can cast Power Word Fuck You should certainly be in the game, but the point -- which I think we both agree on -- is that they shouldn't be common enough to form armies out of them (or even for there to be more than like one or two over an entire continent.)  In Adventurer and Dwarf mode their primary purpose would be to serve as Megabeast-style adversaries, or as powerful factions in their own right.

Adventurers aren't suddenly going to become ineffective when wizards are in.  Adventurers are already in, after all; there's not going to be redesigned to be ineffective.

But, uh, what was all the rest of that about?  It doesn't really make a difference whether wizards get their power from the bloodline of the gods or through centuries of studying ancient tomes with their big bulgy nerd brains.  It's just fluff.  (Well, I'd like to be able to study and learn new magic in Wizard mode, and maybe play as someone who 'knows a few tricks' in Adventurer mode -- like the Gray Mouser, say.)

In fact, that might be a good way to put it.  I think players should be able to play both Sheelba of the Eyeless Face in Wizard mode, and The Gray Mouser in adventurer mode.

[Osmosis Jones]

Isn't that how it usually is? In fact, most quantum and theoretical physicists I know are built like 3rd graders.

Heh, that's actually the opposite of my uni. I swear, half the physics faculty here are fitness freaks.

[Captain Failmore]

It was my way of saying, in so many words, that there's no good reason to give into those trends or the lines of thinking behind them. (And a lot of very bad ones.) Understanding where the obsession with INT and DEX characters has come from and why the party of four system is shit is part of understanding why Dwarf Fortress (and other games yet to come) should strive to be different. More importantly though, it was a chance for me to vent on the subject by - as I forewarned - going off on a tangent.

[Areyar]

lol. Not many people read those books nowadays. >kudos<

Uber-wizards may be restricted to one per 'sphere' and could be obsessed with gaining more power (personality trait), they might usurp a kingdom and use that as a powerbase (meat-factory) to gain advantage over other mages (or defend against the powercrazy ones).

Point is: these would be mayor players in worldgen + a reason for strife.
Wizards could have a physical dislike for mages of another sphere, limiting their use in armies. Get healing from sphere of aquius or get firebolts from the Magnus sphere wizards, try to get both and your army may end up cooked by steam. Such Ubermages should be restricted to 'demon-king' role or megabeasts and not be available for fortressmode.

[Pilsu]

Could always go with something interesting and make "Wizards" (can we call them something original while at it?) more or less magic corrupted mortal creatures. Magic already manifests in magma by creating fire and magma men (and perhaps imps but I like to think those are natural or seminatural creatures), why not have it manifest in kobolds, elves and whatnot? The resulting entity would have some of the traits of the source. Magma men and the like are destructive because of their birthsource. Elven "Wizards" (misnomer) would have some elven traits and their magic would be tied to their birthsource (in this case, creating treants and storms or other nature related clichés stuff). The creature wouldn't be an elf anymore, more like an elf elemental. I don't think they could even talk with regular people anymore. Normal elves would probably be averse of it and avoid the thing out of fear as it tears through logging camps and drowns invading armies

Hmm, what exactly are demons anyway? The two could be tied together in some manner

[Aquillion]

I don't like the idea of Dwarf Fortress having too setting-specific a magic system (this goes for all three of the above posts -- calling wizards something different, having a complicated sphere system cover all magic, or which stats to base magic off of.)

I think it would be best if there were different magic traditions based on completely different things.  They could be joined together by a very rough and basic underlying set of concepts (magical "umph" and so on, so magic from different traditions can contest against each other, and you could use -- say -- the blood of a natural-magic demon to power your ritual-magic rituals), but should differ in other ways.  The traditions would not be equal -- there would be 'high magic' for proper wizards who blow up mountains, and 'low magic' for people who put a bowl of milk out back to feed the gremlins, or mutter dubious charms to ward off bad luck, or whatever.


Regarding the reasons for stats, though -- look, Captain Failmore, you're wrong on them and that's the end of it.  Western tradition has always shown wizards as old, Gandalf-based wizened types with mystical wisdom and high cunning.  Wizards are quite frequently advisers and strategists, such as Merlin or Zhuge Liang.  Fantasy games include Merlin for their wizards because that is one of the most basic and recognizable tropes of fantasy itself; people in Western cultures associate magic with a long beard, a staff, and lots of sagely confusing remarks.  They sometimes have unnatural strength, but there are no stupid wizards in traditional fantasy -- they always have unnatural wisdom.  I am not sure why you have a problem with this.

That's the kind of fantasy trope Dwarf Fortress is trying to embody.  Yes, there is a place for completely different trope-breaking fantasy where the wizards are called Elemenstors and draw their power from their glistening, rippled muscles or where the writer does a hamhanded search-replace of 'One Power' over 'magic' and acts like they're being creative.  I do not think Dwarf Fortress is the right place for that.  Armok 1 was something along that line in many ways -- totally random creatuers, with randomly-assembled limbs and all of that.  The problem with it is that it created a world that was hard for players to visualize and relate to, even with Armok's 3D graphics.

Dwarf Fortress succeeds where Armok 1 fails precisely because it follows basic tropes so effectively (yeah, there are some differences in behavior, but overall it uses them.)  If it was called Shneblob fortress, nobody would be able to visualize it at all -- but everyone knows what Dwarves look like, and can therefore immediately relate to the dwarves in their fortress, with no need for the game to explain or give more detailed representation.

Likewise, the primary wizards of Dwarf Fortress should be at least generally reminiscent of the traditional fantasy tropes -- long beard, pointy hat, staff, confusing-but-wise way of speaking, big tower full of books they study to advance their magical arts.

The reason why Dwarf Fortress can randomly-generate a world from so many disparate parts, represent it to the player primarily as a bunch of ascii characters and a few words, and yet still have the player instantly understand what's going on is because it makes such heavy use of genre conventions.  All Toady has to do is say 'See that smile?  It's a Dwarf', and players will immediately know what he's talking about, and care what happens to that smile as a result.  If he said that it was an Eleminstor or whatever, it wouldn't get the same effect.

"The warlock chants dark words.  Your arm spasms in pain!" is the sort of line anyone can read and know what's up.  "The Corrupted Shmizblork invokes the Power of Magnus!  Your kneeb goes flump!" is much less easy for players to relate to.

[Formerly haftan]

In keeping with the theme of this post I will completely disregard everything previously mentioned and make my own rant for 2 pages... ahem    DF is more like Tolkien then anything else i can think of and if any of you recall magic in tolkien is supposed to be SUBTLE. Elves used magic to hide themselves and their homes, in game terms intruders getting sleepy or disoriented when around their towns, darkness in the day or sunlight in a cave to give handicaps to said creatures that dislike those conditions (worse aiming or line of sight). I am of the camp that there should not be specific spells that are learned or chosen like in D&D. but you give an elf wizard a job and he does it his own way, or even of his own volition. I think especially of his own volition. What i would like to play is a DF world where there are traditional wizards but they have no real purpose and they are all very paranoid. In an army they would be more like seige engines or assasins or diversions for the real attack from the fighters. They would be highly vulnerable and not really willing to face down a huge army alone. So as "megabeasts" they are building towers with traps and an army of somekind (undead, human, goblin) to give them a sense of safety. 
  In fortress mode a dwarf should "mood" into a wizard ("Urist is in a strange mood, he chants to himself and has withdrawn from society.") but they learn whatever Toady's magic system is gonna be slowly, spell by spell or effect by effect. They can still be ordered to do things but study with their free time and the more they study the faster they learn. Now in DF society they would be mistrusted, unpopular and unpredictable. They could be used on the battlefield to do direct damage but i think that any deaths by magic to friendlys would be actively avenged by the deceaseds loved ones. So it may be best to keep them away from society as they could also go berserk. now what would change it up would be that the source of their power could be multiple things... They could suddenly tune with the demons of the pits and get magic that way but would not reveal it or even know it himself. He might accidently raise a field of undead or summon something nasty into the fort. For those who would want to know what kind of magic they are dealing with it could say somewhere in his descript. or you can guess it, whatever Toady programs. but they could also have nature magic channeled from a river or forest spirit, or just dwarf magic through their deities. then they could demand an item to use in their experiments but you dont get anything but they gain abilities or they tantrum. so pretty much a noble that has the potential to actually be useful. or at least fun. Imagine boatmurdered if a wizard dwarf had tantrummed. Telekinesis, fire, ice, teleporting, all kinds of chaos could happen.  it should have a failure rate and unpredictable effects when it does fail. Then it can be tweaked for more control of it in the raws maybe? 
to sum up a dwarf wizard would be a challenge, not a cheat, just like everything else in the game.

[Areyar]

your ideas make me think of the "Malazan book of the Fallen" by Steven Erikson style mages... minus the magic spheres are paralel universes concept.

...
McDreamy has entered a weird mood.
<discards clothes>
McDreamy is furiously hugging a tree.
McDreamy has bound an astral pet.
<inventory shows a squirel spirit as pet sitting on/in head>

Magic coming from outside sources...in this case a minor woodland spirit.
It could give a small usefull ability ...increased detection range for skulkers or increased success in plant gathering. pickpocket coins or rocknuts.

[Mikademus]

Isn't that how it usually is? In fact, most quantum and theoretical physicists I know are built like 3rd graders.

Heh, that's actually the opposite of my uni. I swear, half the physics faculty here are fitness freaks.

Tell me more than half of them are female and I'll pack my massage oil and apply for a position there this moment.

[Formerly haftan]

megabeast Wizards can have it innately. Dwarfs are gonna have to get it from somewhere else. what dwarf would want to go around flinging spells of dubious value when he could be drinking or partying in the dining hall?  perhaps they become loners because they have a constant " bothered by noise" effect