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[Rysith]

Thanks guys, that certainly did the trick with the Orcs.  But I still have a problem..

I didn't put in the names because my tileset won't let me see accented characters. I can't think of anything that'd set the starting temperature of tiles to 0.  Everyone not mentioned above was fine and did not die shortly after.  What gives?  Difficulty: Ubuntu

Did you not put in [CAN_SPEAK], or did you not put in the language file? If you didn't put in the language file, you'll need to change their translation to something else (like GOBLIN), or it won't be able to find the language and odd things may well happen.

Similarly odd things may happen if you don't regenerate the world. Check your errorlog for interesting things.

[Brian]

I tried CAN_SPEAK (it was originally in there without the brackets), and yes the language file is there. Looks like I'm the only one with the problem so I'll take it elsewhere for now, or try a fresh install (though this attempt was also a fresh install).

Thanks

[WorkerDrone]

Hey Rysith, great mod and all, I've been playing for a few hours now...

Only...

Perhaps you should rename the thread:

Orcs: More things to haul

If you've played Rysith's mod...you should know what I mean.

[SkulkingFilth]

Something really astonishing happened to my dwarves. I added the [CAN_CIV] [CAN_LEARN] to the orc raw and was surprised when I got this :





Those beasty green-skinned horrors were turned into lovable trading partners ! I was rofl. As it seems that no goblins are willing to attack my fortress, all my anti-orc defences are useless. Well, I'll make an immigrant-slaughter version.

[Arvidsem]

[CAN_CIV] & [CAN_LEARN] should already have been in there. Did you accidentally enable [CAN_SPEAK] during world gen or embark? That will turn the Orcs into traders.

[Rysith]

Something really astonishing happened to my dwarves. I added the [CAN_CIV] [CAN_LEARN] to the orc raw and was surprised when I got this :

Those beasty green-skinned horrors were turned into lovable trading partners ! I was rofl. As it seems that no goblins are willing to attack my fortress, all my anti-orc defences are useless. Well, I'll make an immigrant-slaughter version.

That's what happens when you let them speak, either through [CAN_SPEAK] or [INTELLIGENT]. You shouldn't have needed to add anything to the raws, except [CAN_SPEAK] after embarking if you wanted all of your orcs to have names.

Fake Edit: Bah, beaten tot he answer by Arvidsem.

[Martin]

Orcs: More things to haul

If you've played Rysith's mod...you should know what I mean.

No kidding. Imagine my no-immigrant fort - 9 adult civilians, 1 military, 5 children. Last siege resulted in 72 orc casualties (I trap them in my trade depot room and turn the marksdwarf on them - it's the only way to survive being that outnumbered). 9 dwarves to haul/melt/dump all of that junk.

I thought I could just lock them out until the kids grew up, but between them and the upgraded gobbos, they just slaughter every trade caravan, leaving even MORE crap to pick up - and all of it farther from the fort. Better to lure them in close and wipe them out.

I think my next fort will move the trade depot next to the smelters, just to speed that up. My other unintended effect was upgrading the gobbos. My legendary +5 marksdwarf can pump 5-10 bolts into a gobbo (as in getting stuck in the gobbo) sometimes before they go down. All of those individual bolts left behind is killing the haulers.

[SkulkingFilth]

Oh, yes indeed, I added the [CAN_SPEAK] tag for test purposes. I got in a muddle with the tags in my previous post. After a regen, Orcs are present (and they are not willing to trade anything any longer except dwarves skins :p) along with damn Frogmen and Olmen and skeletal giant eagles (these seem to hunt the olmen and frogmen, funny).

[Xanares]

Some weapons just for orcs could be interesting, though I hadn't given it much thought. What kinds were you thinking of?

Well that depends on the kind of orc you are mostly templating against; unless these are Rysith's orcs and thus names and abilities are totally up to you. Tolkien, Warhammer, Darklands orcs comes to mind whereas Elder Scrolls orcs are far too civil here hehe.

The orcs I was playing with before I installed your mod had the following:
- orcish shield - bigger ans heavier shield for arrow/bolt defence and bashing of course (i know that is not curr. possible)
- orcish berserker axe - bigger and much heavier axe
- orcish horned helmet - again bigger and protecting ead against pesky arrows/bolts
- orcish ring mail - just instead of chain
I also removed bows from them completely; only weak races use bows hehe.

Others I was thinking of making:
- orcish butcher blade (aka choppa) - midsize slashing sword
- orc gasher - large slashing axe (2 feet blade)
- barbed spear
- metal knuckles (not sure they can work with wrestling skill though)
- orcish head splitter - large maul/mace
- spiked chain - medium/large gore
- spiked hammer - large hammer (bludgeoning)
- orcish flail - large flail
- great sword - large sword
- dire pike - large pike

The general idea is more weight, bigger, and more damage.

To balance this a bit some armour pieces could be removed, perhaps especially gauntlets and boots to make them have less items; or leggins/greaves - although another balance could be making orc versions that can be barred *bone* too.

[Toady Two]

Ok, i genned a world with the latest version of the Orc mod. Before genning I removed the [CAN_SPEAK] tag from the creature_orcs.txt Orc entry. I embarked at a site, then saved and put the tag back in.

The first winter an Orcish caravan came to me.

I wanted the orcs to remain the warmongering savage race that they where in the older version. What step of the way did i do something wrong?

Please tell me how to do it properly and I will regen. Too bad i have to dump such a promising site though.

[Xanares]

Yes; Toady Two you have to do the exact opposite.

IF orcs have CAN_SPEAK when summer/winter arrives and their "show up check" is set to yes, they will spawn as caravan - unless at WAR I think.

[Rysith]

Yes; Toady Two you have to do the exact opposite.

IF orcs have CAN_SPEAK when summer/winter arrives and their "show up check" is set to yes, they will spawn as caravan - unless at WAR I think.

Sigh. I test something on my system and it works, someone else goes to try it and it breaks. So:

First, the goal: Orcs should show up, at war, with names. Preferably riding giant spiders and/or elephants
Second, the things that we know:
1) Orcs that cannot speak are at war
2) Orcs that cannot speak have no names
3) Orcs that can speak are (generally) not at war
4) Orcs that can speak have names

Through observation, we can conclude that
5) Nations cannot make peace during fortress mode without a diplomat

The way that my proposed solution (gen world with non-speaking orcs, embark, then remove) was supposed to work was that the non-speaking would force them into war. You then embark (still at war) and let them speak. When the season comes around, it sees that the orcs can speak and are at war, so you get a siege.

Some things that might be interfering:
1) You added [CAN_SPEAK] before embarking. A tiny bit of world history happens as you embark, during which the orcs may say "wait! we can negotiate for peace. Stop this senseless violence!", then show up to trade as if the past several hundred years of brutal war meant nothing.
2) You embarked such that the nearest orc civ (the only one that will show up) had no contact with your parent dwarf civ, and thus you aren't at war. It *should* be possible to work around this by not adding [CAN_SPEAK] until after your first orc siege, which should move you to a state of war.

[Toady Two]

Your second explanation might be plausible in this situation, as I ran a large world with lots of orc civs.

[Xanares]

I wasn't sure the war status actually was able to start in fortress mode that way.

Since in my test I forgot to remove can_speak, which had been there through gen and embark in order to keep orc names in legend too. Summer came caravan, so I remove can_speak and winter brings violence. Can't try to reinstate it as the fortress and the human city it was under is gone by the hands of 48 orcs hehe.

No mounts though.

Sorry if I messed up the can_speak solution Rysith. Btw did the weapons I proposed, so can put them up somewhere tomorrow for you to check out.

[Rysith]

Some weapons just for orcs could be interesting, though I hadn't given it much thought. What kinds were you thinking of?

Well that dep]ends on the kind of orc you are mostly templating against; unless these are Rysith's orcs and thus names and abilities are totally up to you. Tolkien, Warhammer, Darklands orcs comes to mind whereas Elder Scrolls orcs are far too civil here hehe.

In my mind, they are tending towards the Dwarf Fortress equivalent of the Vandals and Huns. Smallish tribes, limited agriculture and hunting, burn the civilized world etc. I'm not familiar with the background behind Warhammer, nor have I head of Darklands, but I'd say that Tolkien's orc's ties to Sauron/Sauruman make them a bit too controlled for my liking.

The orcs I was playing with before I installed your mod had the following:
- orcish shield - bigger ans heavier shield for arrow/bolt defence and bashing of course (i know that is not curr. possible)
- orcish berserker axe - bigger and much heavier axe
- orcish horned helmet - again bigger and protecting ead against pesky arrows/bolts
- orcish ring mail - just instead of chain
I also removed bows from them completely; only weak races use bows hehe.

They definitely need all of the protection that they can get from arrows and bolts. I like the idea of giving them larger axes (and swords, and such). How did ring mail compare to chain mail (historically, I'd expect it to be worse). I had kept them with bows because a) it fit with the hunting tribe idea, even if they can run down most wildlife and b) non-ranged forces are entirely too easy to kill with ranged forces, so making them have no ranged weapons at all seemed like a mistake. I could see giving them something else as a ranged weapon, though. Staff slings or thrown spears come to mind.

Others I was thinking of making:
- orcish butcher blade (aka choppa) - midsize slashing sword
- orc gasher - large slashing axe (2 feet blade)
- barbed spear
- metal knuckles (not sure they can work with wrestling skill though)
- orcish head splitter - large maul/mace
- spiked chain - medium/large gore
- spiked hammer - large hammer (bludgeoning)
- orcish flail - large flail
- great sword - large sword
- dire pike - large pike

The general idea is more weight, bigger, and more damage.

I like the chain and the general "larger and heavier" theme. I think I'd want to avoid just making everything larger (since they aren't *that* much larger than humans, and likely get a bit of their stuff by raiding them), but I could see orcish spears, flails, and hammers. They already use the human two-handed swords in one hand, so that's taken care of.

To balance this a bit some armour pieces could be removed, perhaps especially gauntlets and boots to make them have less items; or leggins/greaves - although another balance could be making orc versions that can be barred *bone* too.

Yeah, I've seen several people complaining about the amount of hauling that happens with Orcs, though I suspect that that's mostly a quantity + frequency thing. And the local leaders who show up with pages of leather and bone jewelery, which I can't do anything about without giving them industries that I don't want to give them. If I took away gauntlets and boots, I'd probably balance it with an increase in DAMBLOCK so they still had equivalent protection.

I wasn't sure the war status actually was able to start in fortress mode that way.

Since in my test I forgot to remove can_speak, which had been there through gen and embark in order to keep orc names in legend too. Summer came caravan, so I remove can_speak and winter brings violence. Can't try to reinstate it as the fortress and the human city it was under is gone by the hands of 48 orcs hehe.

No mounts though.

Check the legends on one of your abandoned forts sometime, you'll see goblins go to war with something about scholars being unable to determine the cause of hostilities. The mounts (as before) only show up if the invading civ has them in their territory, but the added mounts greatly expand the terrains that will give them mounts (previously only evil swamps, now evil swamps/forest/grassland/jungle). The first siege also tends to be light on mounts, so they may have only had their squad leaders on mounts.

For extra fun, change the war elephants (or spiders) to [ANY_LAND]. The elephants are obvious, but I'm not really sure that anyone has realized the full potential for having dozens of (effectively) giant cave spiders attacking a fortress at once.