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Author Topic: Are you a Heretic?  (Read 5469 times)

Cthulhu

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Re: Are you a Heretic?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2008, 03:16:00 pm »

I think all your answers lie within this page:

http://www.timecube.com/

I see your TimeCube, and raise you one Truthism.

Your move, and you gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, from a pseudoscience fight.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 03:21:25 pm by Cthulhu »
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Qmarx

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Re: Are you a Heretic?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2008, 03:19:24 pm »

Magnetism?  It's caused by electric fields combined with relativity.  Simple.
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Vaiolis

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Re: Are you a Heretic?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2008, 05:35:26 pm »

Just to let you know, all this is just my opinion which I though could be fun to express. Also, I've never written a large wall of text before, and since the preview shows a larger width than the actual that is posted (due to the members at the left side), I'll just spoiler it to be safe. It may be a wall of text!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If anything highly lucky happens to you, thank everyone and everything that exists! If something unlucky happens, everything is to blame!
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Today's Toady Tip: 3 and 4 are not the same number.
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Onlyhestands

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Re: Are you a Heretic?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2008, 05:39:25 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I actually agree with this.
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Vactor

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Re: Are you a Heretic?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2008, 07:25:18 pm »

now you're getting into a free will argument, is it at all possible for that breath to be taken any other way than the way it was/will be taken?

my only counter to you Cthulhu is a pincer attack using http://www.rael.org/ and http://www.ulillillia.us/features/mindgame/mindgamehome.shtml (i know i know, neither of them are barely readable dense pseudoscience manifestos, but hopefully people will be too distracted to noti- hey look over there! *sneaks away*)
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Cthulhu

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Re: Are you a Heretic?
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2008, 08:30:10 pm »

That means I win!
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Bromor Neckbeard

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Re: Are you a Heretic?
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2008, 08:52:26 pm »

Quote from: Vicomt
http://discovermagazine.com/2008/may/02-three-words-that-could-overthrow-physics

The fact that the guy (a self-admitted "dummy") who wrote that article doesn't understand magnetism doesn't mean science doesn't understand magnetism.

I HIGHLY recommend Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time".  It's not in any way "dumbed-down", but remains intelligible to the layman.

Quote from: Vicomt
Post Einstein-ian science is so wrapped up in creating virtual models that attempt to describe what we see, that it doesn't question its own roots.

For example, lets take Magnetism. A well understood scientific branch? we understand its effects pretty well, but we still cannot explain the mechanism by which it operates.

Even if this was true (it's not), it would be irrelevant.  The fact is, a magnetic field of strength X will have effects of Y, predictably and repeatedly.

Quote from: Vicomt
If you think you can find a peer reviewed and accepted paper detailing the basis of the mechanics of magnetism, I'll tip my hat to you..

If not A Brief History of Time, then please look in a high school Physics book.  To state that "the mechanism by which magnetism operates is not understood by science" is completely incorrect.  That's like a kindergartener saying "the stock market's just a big scam because they're not trading anything REAL".  If I said, "find me a peer-reviewed article explaining the mechanism by which a thousand times a thousand equals a million" you would correctly think that I'm ignorant of the most basic elements of mathematics.

And for the love of Armok, PLEASE don't confuse yourself with "alternate" (sham) theories until you're at LEAST on a high school graduate level.  No offense, but you obviously lack the most basic of knowledge on this topic.  This is not a problem with science, it's a problem with you.

Please understand that I'm not attacking you.  I'm just stating that you are confused and under-educated on this subject.
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Vicomt

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Re: Are you a Heretic?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2008, 04:18:07 am »

I HIGHLY recommend Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time".  It's not in any way "dumbed-down", but remains intelligible to the layman.

Firstly, yes I have read Hawking's novel, and yes, I disagree with it. The fact that it relies on black holes, charge-neutral interstellar space and wishy washy dark matter concepts is why I discount it.

Even if this was true (it's not), it would be irrelevant.  The fact is, a magnetic field of strength X will have effects of Y, predictably and repeatedly.

you can talk about the effects of magnetism as much as you like, they're well known, well reproducible, understood and accepted. What I am trying to get through to people is that we know what it does, just not why or how.

And for the love of Armok, PLEASE don't confuse yourself with "alternate" (sham) theories until you're at LEAST on a high school graduate level.  No offense, but you obviously lack the most basic of knowledge on this topic.  This is not a problem with science, it's a problem with you.

Please understand that I'm not attacking you.  I'm just stating that you are confused and under-educated on this subject.

by the way, before you think about "not attacking" me, try not suggesting I didn't get through high school. I may not have degree level qualifications, but my level of knowledge is far from basic.

You see, this is why I call myself a Heretic. I dare to question the assumptions that underly our theories. You who blindly follow the current faithscientific method are the ones who need to open your eyes.

Istrian

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Re: Are you a Heretic?
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2008, 04:43:44 am »

Vicomt, I think you are confusing science with philosophy. The goal of science is to find out how things in the universe work, not why they work. Even though scientists sometimes find the answer to a why question, it is not their goal, it is a side-effect of researching the how.
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Vicomt

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Re: Are you a Heretic?
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2008, 06:17:10 am »

Vicomt, I think you are confusing science with philosophy. The goal of science is to find out how things in the universe work, not why they work. Even though scientists sometimes find the answer to a why question, it is not their goal, it is a side-effect of researching the how.

which is why I said...
Quote from: Vicomt
you can talk about the effects of magnetism as much as you like, they're well known, well reproducible, understood and accepted. What I am trying to get through to people is that we know what it does, just not why or how.

science cannot currently tell us HOW magnetism works.

and to be honest, science is part philosophy, we describe the universe in accordance with our own philosophies, purely because that's how we perceive the universe.

I'm not attempting to push any particular standpoint on this issue, I am however trying to be critical of everything I am told, instead of blindly accepting it.

Osmosis Jones

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Re: Are you a Heretic?
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2008, 08:32:28 am »

science cannot currently tell us HOW magnetism works.

Bet you a penny? Considering I am about to begin my honours project on magnetism in nanoparticulate solids, I would like to disagree.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You would last longer arguing against spin, but even that can be shown to arise from a more basic theory.
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The Marx generator will produce Engels-waves which should allow the inherently unstable isotope of Leninium to undergo a rapid Stalinisation in mere trockoseconds.

Bromor Neckbeard

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Re: Are you a Heretic?
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2008, 09:12:29 am »

Quote from: Vicomt
Firstly, yes I have read Hawking's novel, and yes, I disagree with it. The fact that it relies on black holes, charge-neutral interstellar space and wishy washy dark matter concepts is why I discount it.

You know they recently discovered actual evidence in favor of dark matter? 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081020135219.htm

It's not conclusive proof, but it's observed evidence that backs up the predictions made by people like Hawking decades earlier.  Naturally if dark matter exists trillions of miles away or more, we're not going to be able to get first-hand evidence until our technology improves.

Also, there's piles of observed evidence for black holes.  The term "gravitational lensing" comes to mind.

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/bh_obsv.html

Quote from: Vicomt
you can talk about the effects of magnetism as much as you like, they're well known, well reproducible, understood and accepted. What I am trying to get through to people is that we know what it does, just not why or how.

What I'm trying to get through to you is that just because YOU don't understand the mechanics by which magnetism works, your ignorance does not invalidate or question the qualification of literally thousands of scientists (like, well, that Osmosis Jones feller) who spend their entire lifetimes researching this stuff.

Quote from: Vicomt
by the way, before you think about "not attacking" me, try not suggesting I didn't get through high school. I may not have degree level qualifications, but my level of knowledge is far from basic.

Well, when you say things like, "there's no peer-reviewed publications dealing with the mechanics of magnetism", you come across as a high school freshman who rented "What the Bleep Do We Know?" last night and is now going to OMGWTFPWN his physics teacher.  When you confuse (deliberately or otherwise, I honestly can't tell if you're joking) the scientific method with "faith", it makes you look even worse.

Quote from: Vicomt
You see, this is why I call myself a Heretic. I dare to question the assumptions that underly our theories. You who blindly follow the current faithscientific method are the ones who need to open your eyes.

But, see, I don't "blindly" follow anything.  Magnetic theory has given us things like the electric motor and, well, that computer that you're reading this post on.  If I'm blinded by faith (I'm not), I'd say my faith is justified.  Science has a darn fine track record.

The scientific method isn't about blindly following what came before.  It's about constantly questioning everything.  For a long time, science believed that the "atom" was the smallest possible particle, and atoms could never be split.  Now we have nuclear reactors, and you can even build your own Geiger counter with a kit from Radio Shack.  Science still doesn't know "why" a particular uranium atom undergoes radioactive decay while the one next to it just sits there, but that doesn't invalidate nuclear theory or indicate some "blind faith" on the part of the "establishment".

Again, I must say, I'm NOT attacking YOU PERSONALLY.  You made a ridiculous statement and I'm pointing out the flaws in your reasoning.  Now, I COULD write ten pages on electron spin and quantum interactions, but I'm admittedly not qualified to teach quantum mechanics or calculus, so I can't show you the equations that describe magnetic force and say, "this is how magnetism works" in a way that you OR I would understand.  Here's a couple of links for your further edification.

http://www.coolmagnetman.com/maghow.htm
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=96769

If this isn't enough information, make a new thread about it on the physicsforums.  Just be a little more careful in your phrasing.  If you go all thermonuclear on there with some "there are no peer-reviewed articles on the mechanics of magnetism" crap, they will quite reasonably dismiss you as an Alex Jones type crackpot.  If, on the other hand, you are civil and reasonable, and say something along the lines of, "I'm not aware of the mechanism by which magnetism works, could you point me to some good peer-reviewed articles on the subject", I don't doubt that you will get all the information you need.
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Osmosis Jones

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Re: Are you a Heretic?
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2008, 09:23:12 am »

2 things;

1) "What the Bleep do we know?" is garbage, and should be shot, burned, urinated on, minced, fed to a donkey, crapped out by said donkey and then shot into a black hole.

If you're feeling nice.

If you're not, I can supply several pages on what is the best way to dealing with it, culminating in some very uncomfortable things being performed on the director and producers.



2) I'm kinda with the guy on the dark matter, dark energy thing. Within the various fields of physics, there is a general opinion that dark whatever is a bit of a cop out by the cosmologists. I'm not saying it can't be true, just that the mechanism by which they came upon it was a bit suspect.
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The Marx generator will produce Engels-waves which should allow the inherently unstable isotope of Leninium to undergo a rapid Stalinisation in mere trockoseconds.
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