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In the form of a MU* (as has already been tried)

4 (4.3%)

Empire building browser-based game, using the Frost and Flame engine or making it from scratch

10 (10.9%)

Adventure RPG browser-based game, using the Dragon Knights engine or making it from scratch

4 (4.3%)

A dungone crawler or maybe cooperative fortress builder client-based game using the Eclipse engine (would be real time, and have better graphics than browser-based games)

25 (27.2%)

Cooperative fortress building browser-based game, with traditional DF top-view 2D tiles

45 (48.9%)

a deviant of the cooperative fortress building browser-based game, were the tiles are grouped into bigger "sections"

3 (3.3%)

Other (propose it in the thread please)

1 (1.1%)

Total Members Voted: 92

[Istrian]

For the automated combat system I think we should let the players set their combat strategy in a combat preferences screen. Whatever they set there will carry on for every combat, until thye change those preferences. I suggest having 2 sliders : offense, defense. Sliders would be set using a percentage system. Setting off and def at 50% would give one chance in two of the dwarf attacking his enemy in a given turn.

There should also be an "attempt retreat after..." option with the following settings :
- body part injured at : bruise/injury/heavy injury/torn off
- x turns have passed

Of course each turn of combat will use some of the dwarf's energy, so if his bar is too low he could faint during combat. Maximum number of turns during combat should be limited as well to avoid having two players who cannot hurt each other fight endlessly (if a player wants to attack again, he can just click on the attack button again).

BTW, we should probably start designing a basic interface. Nothing fancy, just something to have an idea of the layout of the screen.

[qwertyuiopas]

I drew a nice, reasonable graph of energy gaina that could be implemented easily(on logon, if you have been inactive more than X minutes(30? 60?) it runs the simple mathematical function on the time since logout(last action)

[webadict]

I don't think combat should drain too much energy. I think that attacking should drain energy.

As for the logarithmic energy gain, I think that energy gain should be a linear style until a certain point.

[Istrian]

Yes, using an offensive move in combat should drain more energy than a defensive one. Perhaps players should set 2 combat strategies : one that is used when they are connected and one used when they are not (whenever PvP gets implemented of course).

As for energy regeneration vs. energy consumption, humans need about 8 hours of sleep for 16 hours of "light" activity. We could use the same for dwarves : if an average dwarf (one with average constitution) sleeps 8 hours, then he can walk around 16 hours while carrying light weight (his clothes).

Of course doing anything other than walking consumes more energy, so eventually the maximum active time of a dwarf every day (without food or alcohol) would get somewhat closer to 4-6 hours. Which means that a player would need to play only that amount of time to empty his energy bar.

Obviously, as the dwarf becomes more resilient his maximum energy bar get higher so the 8:16 ratio gradually becomes an 8:30 ratio when maximal endurance is reached.

[webadict]

Yes, using an offensive move in combat should drain more energy than a defensive one. Perhaps players should set 2 combat strategies : one that is used when they are connected and one used when they are not (whenever PvP gets implemented of course).

As for energy regeneration vs. energy consumption, humans need about 8 hours of sleep for 16 hours of "light" activity. We could use the same for dwarves : if an average dwarf (one with average constitution) sleeps 8 hours, then he can walk around 16 hours while carrying light weight (his clothes).

Of course doing anything other than walking consumes more energy, so eventually the maximum active time of a dwarf every day (without food or alcohol) would get somewhat closer to 4-6 hours. Which means that a player would need to play only that amount of time to empty his energy bar.

Obviously, as the dwarf becomes more resilient his maximum energy bar get higher so the 8:16 ratio gradually becomes an 8:30 ratio when maximal endurance is reached.

But that would assume real-time implementation of activities. We would want turn-based. Unless you want to spend 4-6 hours a day playing.

[qwertyuiopas]

With an online game of over 5 players, turn based is really not an option.
On the other hand, action timers would give a good enough system that fast users would have little advantage.
Also, if combat was split into 30 second turns, with multiple actions per 30 seconds.
1: dwarf hacks at the human! The human dodges
2: the human counters the dwarf, but it doesn't harm him.
3: the dwarf slices at the human but is blocked
4: the dwarf chops the human's lower left arm off.
5: the human, enraged at his limb loss, charges the dwarf in a bloody rage and removes his lower right leg
6: the dwarf slices the human't gut
--end of combat--
Then they could either retreat or continue to attack after the 30 seconds are over.

[webadict]

With an online game of over 5 players, turn based is really not an option.
On the other hand, action timers would give a good enough system that fast users would have little advantage.
Also, if combat was split into 30 second turns, with multiple actions per 30 seconds.
1: dwarf hacks at the human! The human dodges
2: the human counters the dwarf, but it doesn't harm him.
3: the dwarf slices at the human but is blocked
4: the dwarf chops the human's lower left arm off.
5: the human, enraged at his limb loss, charges the dwarf in a bloody rage and removes his lower right leg
6: the dwarf slices the human't gut
--end of combat--
Then they could either retreat or continue to attack after the 30 seconds are over.

I mean that each "attack round" would happen in between movement. All battles would not happen during the game. You would be notified during or after movement how the battle went. For an attack, you would be able to defend, and for every time you attack, your opponent would defend.

It's actually very akin to DF where you control no real aspect of attack except that you can run into an enemy and attack them.

And your idea is turn-based. The attack system you speak of is exactly like the Battledome in Neopets (Only thing I could think of). I never liked it.

[Poltifar]

Ok, I liked the combat idea. As for the interface, here's a rough idea of how the movement interface page could look like (other pages would have very similar layouts, only 5 and 6 would be different):

---|===3====|
_1_|---4----|
   |####    |
 2 |#5##  6 |
   |####    |
   |        |


1. Log in button if currently not logged in, or account name or something like "Welcome, [account name here]!" if already logged in, as well as server name/status/etc...
2. Non-game links, like Home, Index, Help, About, Credits, Wiki, Forums, etc...
3. Game title+maybe graphical art, just decorative, shouldnt take up much space.
4. Game-related tabs, such as links to Inventory screen, Status screen, Equipment screen, etc...
5. The tiles, were the player is in the center tile and 9x9 tiles around him are visible (maybe not 9x9, we'll just have to see what works best)
6. In-game statuses, such as energy, health, food bar, weight carried, etc... (only the most important stats, the rest such as specific skills are listed in the Status screen). Also, in 6 too, we would have options such as 'dig' and 'sleep' and other very used commands, so that the player doesnt have to keep switching screens when he needs to use these commands.

[webadict]

So, should we try the "Pen-and-paper" playing of this game?

1) We'd need to determine the way combat is determined in an equation form
2) We'd need a way to determine energy gain in an equation form, as well as other energy-based jobs and skills.
3) We'd need a fortress layout.
4) Experience? How would that be determined?

I think we start with the most important and work from there. Basically, we start with 2, since most things would require energy.

Ideas?

Mine is that we gain a certain amount of energy each day, with a max energy of... say, three days. All actions (besides defending) would take energy.

I will now use a miner as an example.

Say, each day we get 100 energy, with a max of 300 energy. He hasn't logged in for 2 days, and so has 200 energy.

The miner has 7 levels in mining (Out of 20 [0 being Dabbling] like DF), so he only uses 2.3 energy (Say he loses .1 for each level [3 - .1(7) = 2.3]) each tile he mines (This is rounded up. So, selecting 10 tiles would cost 23, whereas selecting 1 would cost 3, and 2 would cost 5, etc.) Would that be possible to integrate?

Now, say he mines 20 tiles for 46 energy. He gains 10 xp / tile for a total of 200 xp. Assuming he was at 6700 xp in Mining. He now has 6900 xp, leveling him up to level 8 Mining (Technically, Expert Miner). Now, the next time he mines, he will use 2.2 energy.

So, eventually, he mines as much as he can, then he has nothing left to do. He goes to the food and drink stockpile. There is a barrel of Dwarven Ale and some Dwarven Syrup Roast. The miner can drink 5 point of drink, and since each Dwarven Ale is 2 point, he can drink 2. Each Ale gives 5 energy, and so the Dwarf gains 10 energy from drinking the 2. Now, for eating, he has 5 as well, but the Dwarven Roast costs 5 point and gives 15 energy.

So, he has gained a total of 25 energy from food and drink, and he mines 11 more squares for 25 energy (2.2 * 11 = 24.2 which is 25 rounded up).

He has now done all he can today with that dwarf.

[Poltifar]

But when you say 100 energy 'per day', do you mean he gets it all at a single predetermined time (eg. midnight GMT), or gradually, depending on how much hours/minutes have passed? I think we should list advantages/disadvantages of both systems, to see which one would be more balanced and appropriate. (I can't seem to think of any...)

As for the mining pen-and-paper example, I think its all implementable. Also, why round up? We could just store the amount of energy in a decimal variable. Also, I don't think we'll have to designate many tiles to be mined, I think it'll be more like: the player clicks on the tile next to a wall he wants to mine, which moves him there, then he selects 'dig' with direction 'north', clicks 'Go' button, and the wall is mined, then moves again into the newly mined square, selects 'dig' and the direction, clicks Go, etc...

[webadict]

But when you say 100 energy 'per day', do you mean he gets it all at a single predetermined time (eg. midnight GMT), or gradually, depending on how much hours/minutes have passed? I think we should list advantages/disadvantages of both systems, to see which one would be more balanced and appropriate. (I can't seem to think of any...)

As for the mining pen-and-paper example, I think its all implementable. Also, why round up? We could just store the amount of energy in a decimal variable. Also, I don't think we'll have to designate many tiles to be mined, I think it'll be more like: the player clicks on the tile next to a wall he wants to mine, which moves him there, then he selects 'dig' with direction 'north', clicks 'Go' button, and the wall is mined, then moves again into the newly mined square, selects 'dig' and the direction, clicks Go, etc...

I just wasn't a fan of decimals, is all. But that would work.

So, the two types of gain: One point/Continuous

Spoiler: One Point (click to show/hide)

Advantages:
You gain a bunch of energy all at once, which makes doing actions at one time during the day easier.
You will know how many points you have during a single day.

Disadvantages:
You can only really "play" one per day.
You won't gain any more from rest.

Spoiler: Continuous (click to show/hide)

Advantages:
You will slowly gain some while playing.
You will gain the same amount from the One Point method at the same time each day.
You can log on later and have more point to play with.

Disadvantages:
You will be unsure as to how much energy you have at any time.
You will only have a few more after each log on.

I think Continuous would be a better system actually. It's like having One Point if you log on at the same time every day. Not bad.

I don't like your mining idea, though. It'd take a long time to mine. If there was a way to mine out large areas fast, that'd be ideal.

It's much easier to make a bunch of things than to mine a bunch of things, that's the problem. Hmm... any ideas?

[Poltifar]

My idea of mining is because it would be easier to program, since you only have to check a single square to see wether its minable or not, then mine it, while the selecting would need to have a way of storing what was selected, then checking each one of them, etc... Also, if the player can select many tiles to mine, you would also have to do a pathfinding check to see wether each tile is acessible by the player (so that it is impossible to select a tile in the middle of a mountain to be mined), while the idea I proposed would need no pathfinding, since the player needs to get there in the first place and needs to be adjacent to the wall, ensuring that it is accessible...

EDIT: How about a 'dig while moving' option, that digs the tiles the player passes through when turned on. That way, the player just needs to move through the area to be digged.

[webadict]

Dig while moving would make is easier. That'll work right away, and if there's a User-friendly way to make it better, it can be upgraded later.

[Istrian]

1) It is too early to start looking for equations as we haven't agreed on how combat and health should be handled.

I say we go with a simplified body part system for health en damage. Body parts would be : left/right arm/hand/leg/foot, head, torso. Each body part has a certain amount of HP (shown to the player or not) and a certain amount of defense (depending of the type of armor protecting the body part).

When a body part is hit the HP is decreased. When the HP is reduced to 0, the part is destroyed. HP regenerates slowly during sleep but can be accelerated if a dwarf applies a 'medical' skill to the wounded dwarf, and perhaps certain herbs.

2) Energy gain should be progressive. Each hour (hour seems fine, as doing it too often leads to lag) a dwarf spends sleeping (player disconnected or dwarf set to 'sleep') a certain percentage of the energy bar is regained. How quickly it gets refilled depends on how long we want the player to play each day. I'd say 4-6 hours per day is reasonable.

I think every action should take a certain amount of energy. Even walking around, especially with heavy weight. Of course every action brings a certain amount of xp in a given skill (I could see "walker" and "runner" skills implemented).

3) For the first fortress I say we pop stone in the middle of the map, forest in the north and desert in the south. I assume we'll do only one z-level on the first fort, though I don't think it would be too difficult to have multiple z-levels.

4) DF-style : the more you do the bigger your skill gets, though I'm sure you mean "how much skill points gained for every single action". I'd say between 0.1 and 200 xp per action would be fine, depending of the difficulty of the action (required resources and energy, the more it needs, the more xp awarded).

---

On mining : mining, like any other job, should be done square by square. If you want more squares mined, have more dwarves. Dig while moving is fine, but it should require a pick equipped to avoid the problem of players mining accidentally (and collapsing the whole mountain).

Making a bunch of things isn't easier : you need to collect the resources and have a workshop, so you need to move a lot if you don't have haulers (and who would want to play a hauler anyway ?) while mining does not require you to move too far.

[Poltifar]

The health system seems nice, and we could keep the actual numbers hidden and use traditional DF color-coding for wounds, depending on the percentage of HP remaining for each part. For healing, body parts that have reached 0 cannot regain HP, they are simply destroyed. Ofcourse, if torso or head is destroyed, its an instant death. This system would also need a blood-loss sort of system that can lead to death even if your head and torso are still present, but that could be added later.

Yes, walking around should use energy, but I'm not sure about 'walker' or 'runner' skills, since it would seem more appropriate to have that included in Agility (and Strength when it come to weight).

For the first fort, there would be (ofcourse) no random generation of tiles, and I guess the plan Istrian gave would be best, since it incorporates as many mediums as possible. And I would prefer not to have Z levels, atleast not at the very beginning.

So the first step in programming would be the most basic and simple thing: movement. We should just have a map with 'passable' tiles and 'impassable' tiles, to try the movement and all that. Then we would add a dig option to dig impassable tiles, and build up more stuff from then on. And since we are going to start with the movement system, here are two possible ways of moving i've been considering. Both use the tile view:

1) Click on any of the visible tiles and you move directly to that tile. Advantages of this is speed for the player. Disadvantage is in cases such as:

...W..
...W..
...W..
.D.W.X
...W..
...W..


'.' is ground, 'D' is the dwarf, 'W' is a wall, 'X' is were the player clicked. If we used this way of movement, we would need to make a pathfinding check every time the player clicked on a tile that is not directly adjacent to his current location, to be sure the player is not 'teleporting' to that location, and pathfinding is annoying both to code and to run, as it eats speed...

2) We keep the 9x9 tile view, but the player can only move to tiles adjacent to his current location. That would elimintate any problem of pathfinding, since only a single check would be made to see if that one tile is passable or not, but it would be much slower for the player to move from place to place, especially with slow internet connections...

EDIT: Istrian, I don't think it would be possible to have a player be able to play for 4-6 hours per day with the same dwarf without making the game... bland. Also, I think most players who would play this game would only play 1-2 hours on average per day. If we want to let players play 4-6 hours, just let them have more than a single dwarf, each dwarf taking 1-2 hours. That way, players who only want to play for a while each day can concentrate on a single dwarf, while players with more time can switch between multiple dwarves.