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In the form of a MU* (as has already been tried)

4 (4.3%)

Empire building browser-based game, using the Frost and Flame engine or making it from scratch

10 (10.9%)

Adventure RPG browser-based game, using the Dragon Knights engine or making it from scratch

4 (4.3%)

A dungone crawler or maybe cooperative fortress builder client-based game using the Eclipse engine (would be real time, and have better graphics than browser-based games)

25 (27.2%)

Cooperative fortress building browser-based game, with traditional DF top-view 2D tiles

45 (48.9%)

a deviant of the cooperative fortress building browser-based game, were the tiles are grouped into bigger "sections"

3 (3.3%)

Other (propose it in the thread please)

1 (1.1%)

Total Members Voted: 92

[Servant Corps]

Might as well put this other game engine I discovered here:

http://worldofphaos.zekewalker.com/

World of Phaos seems to be like Dragon Knights, except it is tile-based and have some graphics, and looks a little cooler. But it will take more time to modify, of course.

Dragon Knights, FAF, and World of Phaos all use PHP, by the way.

[Hawkfrost]

Those all sound good, we should find one that we like best.

[Poltifar]

Ok, so the votes are mostly going towards co-op fortress building, wether in the form of the Eclipse engine, java/flash client, or 100% browser based game. I won't change the poll, we'll just have to agree on what to use between us.

So basically, I think its now decided that we'll be making a co-op fortress game, now we must decide between:
-Browser-based, server-based code, modified pre-existing engine
-Browser-based, server-based code, from scratch
-Client based, scripted Eclipse engine

IMO, if we go Browser-based, we should go with our own engine, since any other engine would need such heavy modification to really resemble co-op fortress building that it would be better to just make one from scratch (if we were making the game only based on Adventure mode, as in no fortress building and less crafting skills and such, we would probably be better of using a pre-existing engine, but this is no the case.)

As for the Ecplise engine, the problems with hacking aside, I checked some of its scripting and such, and while it does seem easy to make the simpler stuff, such as the DF themed combat and the basic crafting, I think making it possible to do the much more advanced craftings (artifacts, engravings, encrusting with materials, different qualities etc.) and the construction of buildings and mining would be much too tiresome, because in DF each object is practically unique, and in the Eclipse engine each object seems to have to conform to a certain 'blueprint' at 100%... Hawkfrost, or anyone else that knows about Eclipse, correct me if I'm wrong, as I've only skimmed through some stuff...


And now, another point: Who would like to participate in this project?
I doubt the project would advance at any respectable pace, since anyone participating in making it would only be doing it in there spare time, but we can still try to do some stuff, at least to serve as a basis for future attempts at multiplayer DF.
So, if you want to participate in this project in some way, please post so and tell us what exactly you'de like to do (PHP, Eclipse, graphics maybe, other...)

I myself have some little knowledge of progamming including some Basic languages. I'd help in anything that I might possibly be able to do. I have almost 0 knowledge of PHP, but I can make the working backbone of sites (including a login system) using the Visual Studio Web Developper, combining ASP (similar to PHP), HTML, Visual Basic, and Microsoft SQL. Beleive me, anyone that is still even a complete newb (like me) in web development, VS web developper makes it easy to start on these sort of projects, and helps in making such things as graphical layout of the page, login system, database connection, etc... I could learn PHP and an other SQL system, but don't expect that to happen easily or quickly. And if we decide on using the Eclipse engine, I also have no problem in learning its scripting language, its seems very easy.

[Hawkfrost]

I can help with eclipse if we go that way, but yes, mining and building would be annoying to script.

I could also learn PHP if given time.

[webadict]

And I could give support... Woo! You can do it!

[qwertyuiopas]

I know a tiiiny but of PHP and flash...
And quite a bit of C, so it transferes well.
Also, I have a bit of a web server and PHP on my computer, although I only used it once or twice, and only ever to mess with PHP on my own computer.

It will NEVER go online if I can help it, but I can at least test what I make(or don't, as far as it has gone now).

So, yes, I am interested, however it turn out.
Items could be stored as (char or int)type,(char or int)material,(pointer or list)special effects.

[webadict]

I know a little bit of C and BASIC... if that matters. Maybe I'll learn some PHP...

[Vactor]

There seems to be a few different ideas of how the game is actually going to introduce the players/dwarves into the world.  If i might propose:  Each player starts with a dwarf at the mountainholme, They can navigate the wilderness outside it via a world map.  The world map has many nodes where fortresses can be founded by intrepid dwarves who attain a certain wealth or whatever.  This should be something that encourages players to cooperate to achieve.  Once a fortress is founded other players can visit, but they can't take resources from the site without becoming a -=Skulking Filth=- to the members of the fort.  Players can apply for immigration to a founded fort, and it is up to the fort who gets in. 

Each fort site has its own map, which would be what we know of as our DF fortmode, trees to be chopped down, stone to be mined, purring maggots to be captured.  The founder of the fort can site wanted buildings which will give ghost indications of where particular buildings are wanted to be built and where stockpiles have been designated.  However players will be free to build things that they have the ability to build wherever they want and leave their stuff where they see fit.

Becoming a -=Skulking Filth=- makes you an enemy of the fort, attackable until you escape to the world map, and unable to return to that fort for X amount of time.  Only one thing will be carryable, so a -=Skulking Filth=- can't clean a fort out of everything in one fell swoop.  The fact that you need to get in and escape will encourage players to design their fortresses to withstand thievery, with perhaps a fortress that is blocked off by floodgates only open able from the inside or any number of other creative DF traps.

Each player can do work around the fort that will level the associated skill, and they can also journey across the world map to visit other forts, aid in their defense, be part of a raiding party, or just visit and look around as a Liason, or trade as part of a caravan.  Goblin Armies will invade fortressess, but can be seen coming on the world map, which gives their ETA, allowing a defense to be mustered.

Caves and visitable features could be added too.

I think this would be a good base that captures both parts of DF.

[webadict]

See above post.

Well, I agree that that is a great idea. I just don't think it'd be practical.

I think that multiple forts should exist, each one starting with 7 controllable dwarves (1 being the leader, who then divides certain powers among other dwarves). As the fortress grows, you will get more dwarves through births and immigrants. That's fine, but for dwarves that are not controlled, they should have a set job by the leader (or some sort of Job Manager) where they will do such-and-such with their turns.

There should be raiding parties from Goblins and from other fortresses if they so choose, as well as caravans from each fortress, the Elves, or Humans (The leader or a Trader would do the trading, and some sort of General or Captain or the leader would do the raiding).

Tasks should take a certain number of turns or time to complete (Seeing as how I'm not sure which one should be used). So, if you want to make a table, it will take 10 turns or it will take 20 minutes. To smooth a room, it will take 2 minutes/tile, or 1 turn/tile. These could be based on skill and intensity of each task.

Goods should be produced and there should NOT be differences in item quality (excluding masterpieces or artifacts, which would be worth more). What should happen is the number completed in a certain amount of time (or with a certain amount of material) should increase with skill level. This will make item management easier and more efficient. I KNOW that this will be way off from the game, but it's honestly not to big of a deal.

Rooms will be based on the furniture in the room, the base value of the material the room is mined out of, and the smoothing and engraving of the rooms.

Artifacts should be handled the same way as in DF.

Dwarves should become unplayable if they:
1. Die
2. Become Miserable
3. Go Insane
4. Own More Than 25 Kittens (See 3)
5. Become Too Wounded (Missing Limbs)
6. ...
7. Profit!

If a dwarf is unplayable but alive, they should do certain actions, such as kill another dwarf if crazy or need taking care of if wounded.

Keep the number of z-levels small. My number: 5 (2 above, 3 below) to keep things simple.

This is just my input. I have no real say, but I'm just giving ideas on what should be done in the easiest possible way.

[Poltifar]

All the above ideas are very good. Some things I'd like to add:

One main problem we'll have to face early on is this: We probably can't have any advanced AI of any kind, for programming and speed issues. So while animals, basic traders and sieges would be possible, I think NPC dwarves that do jobs and such would be too hard to implement. All fortress dwarves would have to be player controlled.

You might think that that would meen we are limited to very small fortresses, but that doesn't have to be the case. If we use the energy system that we were discussing earlier, players could control more than one dwarf. Each dwarf would be able to do a certain amount of stuff per real day, so players wanting to play more when that one dwarf has no more energy could just start a new dwarf. New dwarves become available when immigrants arrive or children are born. All dwarves that are currently available but not claimed by a player just stand around and act as low-AI NPCs.

For were we start, I like the 'node' idea proposed by Vactor. That would facilitate stuff such as hermit fortresses, fortresses founded by less than or more than 7 dwarves, and also would facilitate incorporating more adventure skills, if we program the nodes to act the same way with adventurers and fortress builders, so mining and woodcutting and such would be availbale to adventurers. Basically, there wouldn't even be a difference anymore between adventure and fortress mode, they would be the same mode, but fortresses would just be much better because many, many dwarves work on it at the same time, while adventurers would be limited to a small cottage because they normally don't stay in the same place for a lot of time, etc...

For the Z levels, I think we'll be starting with a single Z level, then add more ounce we have the basic mechanics working.

Also, for the item quality vs item quantity when we have increased skill, I think it depends on wether we use Eclipse or another pre-made engine or if we make our own. If its premade, most likely we'll go with quantity since items tend to be defined and unchangeable, but if we make our own engine, we could store info individually for each item, using classes and inheritance, allowing us to have almost every item unique, but at the cost of: 1) more programming, 2) more space used, 3) less speed. But if we manage to do it, it would be a big plus.


EDIT: So... PHP then? You all sure you wouldn't reconsider ASP using Visual Studio? It would facilitate stuff and all... PS: for those that dont want Visual Studio on the basis that they don't want to spend money to buy the software, there is a free Express edition availabe for dowaload, and although it doesn't have the VERY advanced stuff for web designing 'cause its free, it has enough to be able to make a login system and a database withought any prior knowledge of programming.

EDITEDIT: How should we divide the work, and how do you want us to share the scripts and pages we each make? We have to have some basic idea of how all of the programs have to fit in together, or else we can't make anything. Probably, one of us should start with the basis of the site, and share the code with the others, and then each one can add stuff to it?

[AltF8]

Having developed a mildly-successful BBMORPG0-ish game (won't spam here unless asked), I am fascinated by watching this unfold. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread for sure.

[Poltifar]

AltF8, if you mean 'spam' as in post about your game, feel free to. We could use some examples to have an idea how ours should turn out. Also, did you use PHP?

[AltF8]

Okay, here's a bit of background story. About 9 years ago, I started work on a pet project - a browser-based, multiplayer "hacking" game. I knew nothing about creating such a thing, but tried anyway. Version 1.0 was a horrible mess that never saw the light of day. But I learned a lot. Version 2 was pretty successful, and version 3 had up to 500 people playing at once. Version 4 is in the works, and has been for nearly 2 years.

Things I learned:

• You cannot rush something like this. Version 1 of my game took mere weeks to produce a working thing, but it was nearly unplayable. Planning is the most crucial thing. In the third version, we wrote the game code as we planned it - what a mess that was. Constantly having to adjust code (which in turn breaks other things) to adapt to changing game designs is a nightmare. The new version in the works has been in the planning/design phase for 2 years. Only recently have we even touched the code/database schema.
• However big you think your game is, multiply that by about 4. It's always more complex than you think it is.
• Documentation - I highly recommend a private wiki or something similar that the designers can use to coordinate the design. Or at least some sort of moderation if you're going to keep it in the forums. We started using Trac (http://trac.edgewall.org/) for our project management, and it's been a life saver.
• No idea is stupid or frivolous. We've discarded so many ideas that have come back into the mix, I can't even count them. We've also nearly ditched ideas that the players latched on to.
• You asked about language. While the language is not 0.001% as important as the design (I learned this too), I used classic ASP attached to a MySql database for all three versions. The in-progress version will be written in VB.NET 3.5 on top of MySql. The interface...well, let's just say the interface can be written in any language, including HTML, Flash, Java - doesn't really matter. The design plan calls for a full API set so players can technically write their own interfaces.
• Security - You absolutely must always keep in mind that you are operating inside a client that you have nearly no control over. We learned this lesson the hard way. Every version had its cheats and exploits. Tracking them down and fixing them took ages. We learned to worship what I call the ASB - the Almighty Stop Button. No matter what you do - the player can always hit the stop button in their browser. Or mess with their cookies. Or hit the back button. Or click a link 500 times super fast. Or write script-kiddie proxies that alter your game's interface. The list goes on and on.
• Write code that is flexible. I had a major issue with this when I started out. My code was difficult to alter for ongoing changes with the game design, and it was horrible to edit. Any game will change constantly due to bugs, player input (mostly) and other factors such as exploits and cheats. I also suggest a version control system, such as SVN (which integrates nicely with Trac).
• Before writing any code, play the game on paper. Use index cards, note pads - whatever you can get your hands on. Use dice for random number generators (or a similar computer application). We did this a few weeks ago with what we thought was our completed design, and we found dozens of holes (and a new feature!). Face-to-face is best, but in this disconnected Internet world, I suggest Skype or a private chat room.

There's about all I can think of at the moment. I hope that my insight at least gives you another angle on this. If there's one thing I'd like to impress on people entering this kind of project, it's this:

No matter how painfully tempting it is - try, try, try to get the game designed before touching the code. This is the #1 thing that I've learned in all these years of messing with BB games. And I'm the worst one at listening to it.

Okay, that's enough rambling. For those who are interested, I'll give you the link to the game. Please note that the currently running version is barely out of beta, and I personally don't like it. At the time, I thought it was pretty slick - but now (knowing what I know) - I think it's kinda rough. Play at your leisure, have fun if you wish. Just don't complain - as development is completely, utterly closed on that app.

Link: Domain Knights v3 - http://periodicgames.com/Xe/Default.aspx

[Poltifar]

Wow, thanks AltF8! I myself am trying to convince the others to go with ASP.Net + Visual Basic .Net + Microsoft SQL + Html, but I guess we'll go with what the majority prefer. And although I'm terribly itching to try out some code ideas I have, I guess we'll stay on thinking about the design for now, atleast for a few more days. Coordinating all the work will also be hard, but we'll find a solution to it ounce we decide on what each person has to do...

This game will probably take as long or longer than your game to work, but hopefully something playable will come out of it Thanks again!

edit: I checked your game, and I'm definitely going to be playing it. I always liked the idea of hacking games, but never found one that suited me at 100%.

edit2: (i know, I'm doing too many edits) I'd like to say, the amount of info on the first page of the game alone blew my mind away. It seems the kind of game with a steep learning curve, but ALOT of depth. My type of game exactly i can say with no regret that compared to this game, all other hacking games are... lacking... to not say something more offensive

[AltF8]

Thanks for the compliments. I've always been a fan of "overly" complex games, so that's what I wrote. Yes, there is a learning curve. No, you cannot figure the game out in a few hours. Yes, it can be fun, but it depends on how many people are playing at the time. We've never really advertised the game, so it's been purely a word-of-mouth thing. And if you think this one is complex...wait until the next version. 

There is also a lot of good information on the forums, both about the current version and the next.

On the code ideas thing: prototyping is always good, especially as a diversion.