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Author Topic: Incursion  (Read 125507 times)

Kagus

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #390 on: October 26, 2009, 06:32:11 pm »

Hmm...  Skeletal trooper and floating eyesocket...  Mind telling us what happened a few turns before?  You weren't being careless around any graveyards now were you?  Also, what dungeon level were you on?

Also, that character sounds like she might have been spread just a teensy bit thin.  If you have the character level and attribute stats, that would be delightful.


But anyways, from what little I know, fortitude is based almost entirely off of constitution.  You can train constitution to beef up your innate fortitude abilities (see this article for more information), but other than that you should just look out for items and feats with fortitude buffs (I think there are feats that allow you to roll a save twice, then use the highest roll as your 'final answer'.  This is incredibly powerful).

Furthermore, if I'm not entirely mistaken, you will automatically gain increases to your will, reflex and fortitude saves every level based on your attributes and character class.

Which reminds me...  This character is a dual-class, right?  Rogues get a much lower fortitude save than warriors do.  They're more keen on avoiding that sort of thing than having to take it.  If you played a rogue before dual-classing over to a warrior, that might account for a low fortitude save.


However, my first impression is that you simply got caught with your pants down by something out of your league.  I mean, from the looks of it, even the skeletal trooper was almost more than you could chew.

You have to be really careful when building your character to make sure that they're flexible enough to cover most types of situation, but specialized enough to actually be able to do something about it.  Danger levels ramp up pretty darn fast with all sorts of new and freaky critters in the lower levels, so you have to make sure you can handle them.  And the hard cap on character level is a major pain in the arse...


Mostly, you just need to pick your battles.  If you did happen to stir up a mess in a graveyard, I suggest you don't do that.  Seriously.

If you encountered these critters naturally however, in a deep crypt or something, then I have to say that you were pretty much boned as soon as you stepped in there (hurr hurr).  Warriors need to be especially careful to keep an eye on their saves, since they have a tendency to get locked into the 'bigger sword' style of thinking where they only account for mundane encounters.

In truth, not everything you face will even look twice at your godlike AC.  Heck, most of it won't...

But then those mages with their awesome will saves and magical defenses come in and immediately get their asses carved out and handed to them by some lowly goblin since their AC is pathetic.  And this is the glory of Incursion...  Regardless of what path you choose, there will always be something that can wipe the floor with you.


Unless you're a weavecrafter/alienist.  Seriously, that was just downright broken.

0x517A5D

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #391 on: October 26, 2009, 07:42:13 pm »

Dungeon level was 70', character level was 9 but was ready to go up to 10.  I was entering a room for the first time; the room had apparently had a large battle as there were a lot of piles in it.  The skeletal trooper was the only monster I noticed.  I had previously handled skeletal warriors and troopers with the character.  I engaged the trooper, and thus stopped hiding.  And then....

Looking at my stats, I should have retreated to my stash to cure my WIS damage.  I wasn't aware it was that low.  And I didn't know how to train attributes.  Thanks for that link.

I don't know why it shows I was in explore mode; I didn't start the character in explore, and I'm fairly sure I didn't enter wizard mode either.

Note that the stats shown do not take into account boosts from my equipment.

Tabitha Achabald, The Embittered Cynic (Explore Mode)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Inventory:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Known Spells:

Journal:  (too big to post)

Level Statistics:

Lvl | Act | Key | Turns | Secs |  XP | Explored
----+-----+-----+-------+------+-----+------------------
1   | 6767|16476|1305995| 11601| 6849|5233 / 5234 = 99%
2   |13539|35214|4856894| 96259| 9006|4453 / 4461 = 99%
3   | 3599| 7036| 265219| 15585| 7414|3763 / 3876 = 97%
4   | 6162|13844| 117428| 12256| 6648|4255 / 4255 = 100%
5   | 8843|24586| 552093| 74121|11845|3904 / 3971 = 98%
6   | 5583|15006|  78587|  7106| 5673|3951 / 3951 = 100%
7   | 2689| 5707|  32847|  2875|10952|2253 / 4336 = 51%

Messages:
The skeletal trooper is knocked from its feet! The skeletal trooper is knocked from its feet!
Attack: 1d20 (11) +15 = 26 vs. Def 10 + 3 know = 13 [hit]
Damage: 2d4+5 +2 PA = 12 bypassed Cov 10 = 0 +3d6 SA = 9
Bypassing its armor, you swing low, hitting the skeletal trooper.
The skeletal trooper's natural armor absorbs the attack!
Spot Check: 1d20 (1) +15 = 16 vs DC 20 [failure].
The skeletal trooper regenerates.
Fortitude Save: 1d20 (3) +5 base = 8 vs DC 14 [failure].
Floating Eyesocket's Damage: 1d8 = 2 Paralysis
A floating eyesocket gazes at you.
You find yourself unable to move! You find yourself unable to move!
Floating Eyesocket's Damage: 2d4 = 3 Pure Magic
A floating eyesocket gazes at you.
Fortitude Save: 1d20 (6) +5 base = 11 vs DC 13 [failure].
You die...


What I learned: e's are as instakill dangerous as f's.  Entangling immunity is not free action.  Taking all attack-enhancing feats may not be wise.
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Kagus

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #392 on: October 26, 2009, 08:29:17 pm »

There are certain options that you can set which will automatically change your game to explore mode...  Disabling out-of-depth monsters is one of them, I believe.  You have to look at each option to see if it will trigger explore mode.

Yeah, you've got a rather low constitution for a fighter-type.  That, plus the lower number of warrior levels contributed to lower-than-possible fortitude save.  But dayum, that's a bucketload of intelligence...  What were you doing with all those skill points?

Let's look at your feats...

...ooh.  Yeah, that's kind of...  That's really pushing it.  Still though, there's not much in the defensive feat list that can save you from what just happened.


It's kind of tricky to figure out the best thing for that situation, due to your specific build.  You put a lot of effort and resources into the dual-wielded spiked chain build, but you had more levels in a class that was not made for full-out fighting.  Playing style becomes very important with a build like that.

One little general tip though...  Mind you, this is a bit metagame-y and it smells just a teensy bit like cheat...  But it's incredibly useful and the game doesn't know how to punish you for using it.


Failed rolls can sometimes be almost as useful as succeeded rolls.  As an example, in the combat log before your death there was an automatic spot check that you failed.  So even though you were not able to dispel its stealth, the game just told you that there was something hidden in that room.  You can even gauge approximately how dangerous the thing is by looking at what sort of defense check you have to overcome.

I mostly pay attention to this when searching for traps.  If I fail to find a trap, it will return a failed roll message in the log.  If there's no trap to be found, it returns nothing.  I used to be able to identify trap types by looking at the DC I was rolling against.  Same goes for hidden doors and whatnot.

Listening does something of the same, but it's more difficult to get any use out of, due to its nature.


Personally, I would recommend getting some sort of general anti-undead defense.  Necrophysiology only works in regards to sneak attacks and critical hits, it doesn't help you with the physical-immune undead types.  The undead have a very nasty way of being stupidly powerful, so it's nice to have some really big guns to pull out and whack them with.  The feat slot could easily have been used for something more generally helpful.

EDIT:  Oh, yeah, and read the manual provided on the main site.  That thing, although incomplete, is unfathomably useful.  I usually keep it open while I'm playing, just so I have a reference guide.

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #393 on: October 26, 2009, 09:34:10 pm »

There are certain options that you can set which will automatically change your game to explore mode...  Disabling out-of-depth monsters is one of them, I believe.  You have to look at each option to see if it will trigger explore mode.
I'm pretty sure I didn't get warned that the game would be in explore mode just before chargen.  I remember being warned on previous games with looser settings, but not this time.  It is a mystery.

Quote
Yeah, you've got a rather low constitution for a fighter-type.  That, plus the lower number of warrior levels contributed to lower-than-possible fortitude save.  But dayum, that's a bucketload of intelligence...  What were you doing with all those skill points?
Yeah, I rolled low CON, and it appears that it never even started to raise.  11/00.

As for INT, I did choose it to be high, specifically for early game skill points.  Rogues live or die based on skills.  I don't really know what I was doing to train INT up to 25.

Skills... I filled out all the rogue skills that interested me, and had buckets left over.  Rogue skills are a superset of warrior skills.  So when I hit rogue 6 and switched back to warrior, I had nothing to spend those points on either.  Maybe I shouldn't worry about having huge INT.

Quote
Let's look at your feats...

...ooh.  Yeah, that's kind of...  That's really pushing it.  Still though, there's not much in the defensive feat list that can save you from what just happened.
Yes, I know I was pushing it.  I was hoping to get a L11 character to have both Great Cleave and Two-Weapon Tempest.  With, of course, all the prerequisites.  I think the only non-offense feat I took was Sneaky.

Quote
Personally, I would recommend getting some sort of general anti-undead defense.
I had an amulet of... undead warding?  vs. undead?  The one that makes them ignore you.  I was wearing an ESP +1 instead.  Of the two, which would you favor?  I guess floating eyesockets are undead floating eyes?

Quote
EDIT:  Oh, yeah, and read the manual provided on the main site.  That thing, although incomplete, is unfathomably useful.  I usually keep it open while I'm playing, just so I have a reference guide.
I do.  I've got about 15 tabs open to various parts of it.

Thanks for looking at the dump.
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E. Albright

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #394 on: October 26, 2009, 09:50:20 pm »

Can someone tell me what (if anything) the various backpacks +X are doing?
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cowofdoom78963

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #395 on: October 26, 2009, 09:55:54 pm »

Can someone tell me what (if anything) the various backpacks +X are doing?
Their better, anything with +X is better...
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BishopX

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #396 on: October 26, 2009, 10:30:00 pm »

+X backpacks have more hitpoints.

Also, Kagus, Erich's code of conduct is slightly different from generally lawful good codes of conduct, and playing a lizard man paladin of Erich is really fun because you get incredible gear, can swim in plate mail and your mount is a bit beefier than a horse.
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Kagus

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #397 on: October 27, 2009, 01:44:44 am »

Erich is a dick.  Yes, I know he's not exactly 'Lawful Good', that would be more Hesani's deal (who would be a pretty epically powerful god if he wasn't such a wimp), but Erich is very strict about the whole 'Code of Chivalry', which he practically wrote.

As such, you have to be honorable.  Which is exactly what we're trying to avoid, remember?  Honor sucks.

However, he can be lots of fun if you're willing to play by his rules. 


Yeah, I rolled low CON, and it appears that it never even started to raise.

That's the tricky thing about constitution.  If you look in the article, you'll find that most things which allow you to train CON require high stats to begin with.  Your chances of overcoming poison and disease rely heavily on your constitution levels, and in order to survive a critical hit you'll need all the CON-supplied hitpoints you can get.  And as for expending stamina points?  Well, guess where you get those from.

Basically, the only way to train up a low CON stat is to eat 'healthy' food (which is friggin' impossible unless you're an orc and eat corpses, since you're boned for finding anything other than rations down in the dungeons), and stay slightly hungry all the time (but not too hungry!  That will just drain it back down again.  Stupid balance).  Or wear really heavy armor, but that's another story entirely.

So a strong constitution will just keep gettin' stronger, and a weak one will stay weak.  It's kinda like those diseases that target the constitution...  Every time you fail a save, your chances of hitting the next one go down.  It's a vicious, vicious cycle.  I know this, because I've been on the wrong end of it a few too many times.  Stupid disease creatures...  You can kill them all you want, and they'll still bring you down in the end.  Buggers.


As for INT, I did choose it to be high, specifically for early game skill points.  Rogues live or die based on skills. 

Yes, yes they do.  But spiked chain warrior rogues who fight their enemies head-on instead of tumbling and jumping around to avoid them?  I'm not so sure.  Much as I love skill points, they aren't really that useful for the grit and grime of face-to-face combat.  Picking your battles is no more important than picking how you fight them.  Think about exactly what it is you're going to do, and then work out how to do that.


I don't really know what I was doing to train INT up to 25.

Identifying items via experimentation and successfully reading scrolls would be my guess...  Unless of course you put points into magical knowledge and started researching stuff at the library nonstop, which is a MAJOR boost to intelligence. 

Remember kids, do your homework!  It gives the mind flayers more to eat.

Yes, I know I was pushing it.  I was hoping to get a L11 character to have both Great Cleave and Two-Weapon Tempest.  With, of course, all the prerequisites.  I think the only non-offense feat I took was Sneaky.

Well, in all fairness, sneaky is one heck of a feat.  If you're going to pick anything, that's a nice one to have (for anyone who's going to be sneaking at all, that is).  Just remember that 11 is the maximum character level for Incursion's current state, so even  if you got that far you wouldn't get the chance to plug any feats into defensive areas afterwards.

Also, I don't think my alienist had reached level 11 yet...  And let me tell you, he has seen some pretty freakin' nasty sh*t down there.

I had an amulet of... undead warding?  vs. undead?  The one that makes them ignore you.  I was wearing an ESP +1 instead.  Of the two, which would you favor?  I guess floating eyesockets are undead floating eyes?

Yep, that they are.  I always had a little trouble picturing a "floating eyesocket"...  I'm guessing they're related to the skeletal sharks of DF in some way.

As for which of the two I'd favor, that's kind of tricky.  The ESP amulet is rather nice for certain occasions.  Being able to see things before they know you can see them is quite handy.  But if you catch so much as a whiff of undead I'd say to whip out the undead warding amulet.

ESP will only give you a heads up for the stuff that's trying to creep in from the side and give you a stabbin' all sneaky-like...  And that's just for the ones that have brains.  Not all of them do.

Undead warding, on the other hand, will protect you from all undeadies, regardless of whether or not you can see them.  You can even get close enough to sniff the delicate aromas of rotting flesh and they won't bug you. 

Won't do diddly with the ones who are still breathing though.  Pick what you're most afraid of, Drow assassins or zombies with clubs.  Accessorize accordingly.

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #398 on: October 27, 2009, 04:21:54 am »

Basically, the only way to train up a low CON stat is to eat 'healthy' food (which is friggin' impossible unless you're an orc and eat corpses, since you're boned for finding anything other than rations down in the dungeons), and stay slightly hungry all the time (but not too hungry!  That will just drain it back down again.  Stupid balance).  Or wear really heavy armor, but that's another story entirely.
So I guess I need to start with a CON of 13+, wear heavy armor, and kick in tumble every so often.  I only wore light armor last game, to avoid penalties.  I suppose the penalties don't matter once you get skills high enough.  What are the other (non-feat) consumers of vitality points?

Food.  I kept myself at satiated all game.  I see now that's a bad move.  I have never noticed hunger changing except when sleeping, does it ever?

Healthy food.  Cottonberry loaves for hobbits, dried meat for kobolds, orcs, lizardfolk?  Something I can't remember for elvesies, spider bread for drow.  What's good for humans and dwarves?

I think I'll roll and roll and roll for a disease-immune orc.

Quote from: Kagus
Quote from: 0x517A5D
I don't really know what I was doing to train INT up to 25.
Identifying items via experimentation and successfully reading scrolls would be my guess...  Unless of course you put points into magical knowledge and started researching stuff at the library nonstop, which is a MAJOR boost to intelligence.
Ding!  Library research.  I find it really helps early-game when you have so many potions, scrolls, and wands to type-ID, and you're not starting with the "beginner's kit."  So that explains that.

Quote from: Kagus
Quote from: 0x517A5D
I had an amulet of... undead warding?  vs. undead?  The one that makes them ignore you.  I was wearing an ESP +1 instead.  Of the two, which would you favor?  I guess floating eyesockets are undead floating eyes?
As for which of the two I'd favor, that's kind of tricky.  The ESP amulet is rather nice for certain occasions.  Being able to see things before they know you can see them is quite handy.  But if you catch so much as a whiff of undead I'd say to whip out the undead warding amulet.
I wish I could macro switching between the two.

New question.  I noticed that when I wore a ring of good fortune +2, a ring of good fortune +1, and boots of providence +2, that my luck increase was +2, not +5.  And just now I tested that combo plus a luckstone +4, and got a luck increase of +4.  So the stat bonuses aren't stacking with each other.  Is that true for all equipment stat bonuses?
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Another

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #399 on: October 27, 2009, 05:29:08 am »

I finished this game about a year ago with a dwarven warrior. That one was not completely legit as some save-scumming was involved at mid-levels. But then dwarven weaponcraft was no longer ignored and anti-etherial (graven) full plate and shield and heavily enchanted dwarven waraxe along with maximum specialization in it, shields and resilient feats made a devastating combination. Regenerating hit-points (feat), fatigue (dwarf), ~25-100 damage per hit, tons of hit-ponts (loyal worshipper of Ekliazeh). He still had to carry a +1 dagger on belt at all times because of giant grapplers.

Then I managed to ascend with an orc barbarian. I guess that random perc "Disease Immunity" was what distinguished him from his numerous buddies that failed their last fortitude save at levels 1-3. Keeping Xavias (I hoped for weaponcraft but failed to accumulate enough favor; his "teleport" aid also doesn't work at all) and Mara (pantheism finally works correctly) content despite all the corpse-eating was easy but a bit tedious (Khasrach indirectly killed more starting characters with his [even magical] fear taboo then any single monster type). Overall I found barbarians to be a newbie-friendly class that can get out of many troubles by applying their "Bigger Sword" method. Orcs on the other hand are not newbie-friendly at all.

Currently I am carefully descending with an elf rogue. Due to low starting constitution and high wisdom I burned 3 feats on "One body one soul" and all my saves seem quite OK as a result. Perhaps his weakest point is his connection with Maeve though I plant to utilize her Sign of Discord ability in the final battles.

After this one is finished - no matter how - I'll probably try a gnome illusionist or a paladin of Immotian or Erich.

And if you are a spellcaster - don't use any automatic counterspell setting; at least 2 of my mages were forever locked and lost in "do you want to counterspell?" bug.
By the way latest version 0.6.9I is windows-only but works quite stable under wine.

Edit:No magical "plus" stacks with each other. Though "magical" plus stacks with "luck" plus, further stacks with "competence" plus, "sacred", "morale", "kit" and so on. Pluses in the same category don't stack but different categories stack with each other. There are still exceptions (I think - dodge).
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 05:41:20 am by Another »
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BishopX

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #400 on: October 27, 2009, 09:23:35 am »

Another, don't play a paladin of Immotian, the god gives you nothing you couldn't already get.
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Another

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #401 on: October 27, 2009, 10:49:26 am »

Why not pray to both at the same time then? Hostile fire elementals can probably be cowed into fleeing with focus on intimidation skill from Erich. Are Immotian bonuses not worth absolutely anything at all? He may be not super-useful but not too demanding for a paladin either. I see how his restrictions could make most other classes much harder to play.

A cleric or a bard of Hesani and Essiah could be an interesting combination. Any warnings behind obvious ultra-peaceful/little XP?
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Kagus

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #402 on: October 27, 2009, 01:59:07 pm »

Check a couple pages back for my full report on diplomatic characters.  They're actually quite powerful, but rather bugged.

Immotian is more of a cleric's god than a paladin's god.  As BishopX said, you really don't get much new stuff out of the deal if you're a paladin of Immotian.

Food.  I kept myself at satiated all game.  I see now that's a bad move.  I have never noticed hunger changing except when sleeping, does it ever?

Yeah, it goes down over time naturally.  Just not ultra-fast like in Crawl or other roguelikes.  Here you can actually hang on to your food for a while.

Healthy food.  Cottonberry loaves for hobbits, dried meat for kobolds, orcs, lizardfolk?  Something I can't remember for elvesies, spider bread for drow.  What's good for humans and dwarves?

Elves start off with some special bread-type thingies that work as healthy food for them.  But all this is rather irrelevant as there are only two types of food you will ever find in the dungeon, namely rations and dried meat.

I'd actually forgotten about the meat.  I guess this means that carnivorous races can actually find something moderately healthy.

The only way to get more of the 'healthy' food types for the other races is to take them from NPC adventurers of the same race...  And that's WAAAY too rare of an occurrence to be relied upon.  That, plus the benefits really aren't that huge.

Sowelu

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #403 on: October 28, 2009, 04:57:22 am »

Disguise DOES look like a very useful skill, unfortunately it's bugged and therefore worse-than-useless.  Much worse.  Unless you have it at very high levels.

"Creatures that are hostile to you because you struck them will not be hostile to you when you are disguised unless you strike them again while in a given disguise. Creatures that are hostile to you because you are 'the player character invading the dungeon' will not be hostile to you when you are disguised."

How awesome is that?  If you don't want to get into any more fights than you have to, just disguise yourself as another member of your own race first thing when you wake up.  You'll be getting -2 penalties to stuff, but only until you boost your disguise high enough.  Mostly you would want to take a single rank in it though, and if there's a big burly hostile nasty thing in a room, just disguise and sneak past...even if you already pissed it off.

Problem:  You get a -2 penalty to everything while your disguise bonus is less than +10, and a -1 penalty while it's less than +15.  THESE PENALTIES DO NOT GO AWAY.  If you change disguises, it doesn't remove the first -2 penalty, but it adds another.  If you sleep, it doesn't remove them.  I had a pretty neat monk who was supposed to be essentially an unarmed innocent bystander, then I suddenly realized that he was getting -8 circumstance penalties to his to-hits, to his armor class, and all that other good stuff.  Can you say unplayable?

Moral:  It's still pretty neat.  If your character concept already has 'bluff' (adds a synergy bonus to disguise), and you're a human with an extra class skill to burn, might as well add disguise...and then sit on it with no ranks until you're high enough level to bump it straight up to +15 in just a level or two.  Don't ever use it before then, though, or your character will get penalties for the rest of his life.
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chaoticag

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #404 on: October 28, 2009, 06:59:47 am »

Actually got to about level four before slipping on a puddle to death. Also, Lucerin Hammers are pretty awesome.
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