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Author Topic: Incursion  (Read 125651 times)

Ikaruga

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #825 on: May 26, 2014, 01:34:38 am »

Hi !

Can someone suggest me a good level 1 mage build, please ?
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Frumple

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #826 on: May 26, 2014, 05:17:36 am »

Incoming wall of text! If you want, you can skip down to the bottom for an example starting build.

Can someone suggest me a good level 1 mage build, please ?

Well, get summon monsters I, phase door, knock or wizard lock, and a ranged attack spell of some sort (Magic missile, minor drain, or chromatic orb). Then probably floating disc. And... that's more than you really need, actually, but covers most your bases. You'll likely have some spell slots left over -- look around, check failure rates (look for penalties -- that means it's an opposed school and you probably don't want to learn it), and see if there's anything that interests you, grab it, and experiment. You'll probably want to go ahead and grab guildmage and mystic preparation as your initial feats -- that'll give you an extra level 1 spell and a minor cost reduction on your persistent buffs, which can add up.

Skill wise, you want read magic, knowledge (Magic) [This opens up new scrolls for you to scribe, which can be very useful, among other things], concentration, and use magic, in particular. Then anything else that catches your fancy -- play around a bit and see what fits your personal style.

I would almost definitely suggest drow or lizardfolk if you're getting used to playing a caster -- the former has incredibly good line of sight and the latter has built-in armor and innate swimming, which clears up some of the more common terrain issues by itself. Any race will do, actually, and all will do well, but those are probably the ones that give a new player the most initial leeway. Definitely avoid plain elves -- they've got some incredibly nasty weaknesses. A lot of bonuses to offset them, but not something you want to deal with while getting used to the game. Human, dwarf, orc, or halfling would probably be my secondary set of suggestions -- avoid kobolds, gnomes, or, as mentioned, elves. They're not actually weaker or less playable, really, just harder to get used to or better suited for very specific builds (gnome illusionists, ferex).

Your three stat priorities are Intelligence, Constitution, and Wisdom, more or less in that order. After those, a Charisma of 13 (or slightly lower -- within range of a +2 or +3 cha-boosting item is ideal, though) and as high a luck score as you can get is desirable. Strength and dexterity are mostly irrelevant, though the letter is moreso than the former -- dex is good for saves and strength for carrying stuff, but hopefully you'll be play so you can avoid reflex checks, and floating disc covers a lot, if not all, of your encumbrance issues.

Reasoning in order -- spell failure is the absolute worst thing, and more than anything that is what you want high int for, to keep from failing when you cast spells. The associated other benefits -- more spells memorizable, more skills, higher DCs for you spells -- are also great.
Constitution should be self-evident -- you don't want to die. Mages actually have a lot of ways of avoiding being in a situation where you take damage, but when you're learning the more of a buffer you have between you and death, the better. And even once you're familiar with the game, it never hurts to have some leeway for sloppy play or just plain bad luck.
Wisdom is somewhat tertiary, but still important -- it governs your mana pool and thus how long you can last before needing to retreat and recover. You can get by fairly easily with it quite low, but that takes more finesse -- something you want to avoid when you're learning the game.
Charisma of at least 13 lets you barter for buffs, which saves you mana and can get you limited access to druid and priest spells. Luck strongly influences drops, and the more you get of that the more items you'll have, which is good.

School wise, you can't go wrong with Arcana or Weavecraft. Thaumaturgy also gives you more wiggle room in regards to health, but is somewhat less direct in playstyle. Evocations are very direct, but specialty in it penalizes a lot of very important spell schools -- I wouldn't recommend for a beginner. Necromancy, enchantment, divination, and illusion are all fairly different from your standard playstyle and a little tricky (comparatively), so not something to start with. Abjuration is actually quite straightforward, too, but it's not as easily to lean heavily on a buff-heavy school was it was in the olden days (at least without abusing scroll casting). Still, perhaps not as relatively finicky as necromancy, enchantment, divination, or illusion.

--

To give an example, you'd probably want to start with something that looks kinda' like this:
Race: Drow
Stats (using point buy -- you can almost certainly get better with rolling): 11/8/15/18/15/11/12, coming out to 10/10/15/20/15/13/10 once racial modifiers are factored in. You can actually go lower with strength or dexterity -- but again, as much of a buffer for failure as possible isn't really a bad thing.
Alignment: Neutral Evil -- this gives the most freedom in regards to alignment available, oddly enough. It's only downside is vulnerability to holy weapons -- watch out for paladins!
School: Arcana
Feats: Guildmage, Mystic Preparation
Skills: Two points in: Decipher Script, Knowledge (Magic), Use Magic. One point in: Appraise (this will very quickly help you train your intelligence), Concentration, and Searching.
Spells: Monster Summoning I, Protection from Evil, Floating Disc, Wizard Lock, Expeditious Retreat, and Shield -- though it's possible for the list of available spells to vary. Don't worry about it, too much. Just make sure you get MSI, Floating Disc, and Wizard Lock. You'll start off with Phase Door and Magic Missile.

And you're good to go. First thing you'll want to do is go up the stairs and buy and wear a suit of leather or padded armor, if you've got the gold for it (and you probably will). Don't worry about being untrained -- if the item's description doesn't mention a spell failure rate, there isn't one, even if you're untrained. Doing this instead of getting Mage Armor will protect you from bonebats, and a few other similar critters. Afterwards, clear out the first dungeon carefully -- don't forget to cast protection from evil and floating disc (to start -- wait for level two to cast anything else, such as shield or expeditious retreat), be sure to use Monster Summoning I regularly, and use Magic Missile to support your summons (just be careful about shooting them!).

Hope that helps! Also, as a fair warning, I was badly sleep deprived while writing that, so if anyone chimes in and offers counterpoints, listen to them well. I've played a lot of mages, and won with every school at this point, if my memory's not failing me, but I'm also very sleepy, haha!
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 05:33:39 am by Frumple »
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Zireael

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #827 on: May 26, 2014, 06:34:35 am »

Yeah, there's plenty to be fixed and balanced before new stuff gets thrown in. Trust me, there's no lack of content in Incursion.

But seriously, if you can do anything about diplomacy/hostility and silliness therein Incursion would be one step closer to perfection. The faction system is nice, creatures fighting creatures is awesome especially if you can induce it, but I don't want my damn pony to make everyone hostile to me and even attack myself sometimes.

It'd also be nice if the Orcs in the Orc barracks weren't likely to murderize eachother to hell and back 9 out of 10 times.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

Mictlantecuhtli, you might want to try out Veins of the Earth - your pony doesn't attack you or make others automagically hostile :)
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ptb_ptb

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #828 on: May 26, 2014, 07:13:18 am »

Quote
Mictlantecuhtli, you might want to try out Veins of the Earth - your pony doesn't attack you or make others automagically hostile

I tried Veins of the Earth. It was a bit too crashy. I might try again in a few updates' time.
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Ikaruga

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #829 on: May 26, 2014, 08:53:58 am »

Thanks a lot for your reply !  :D

I didn't expect this much !

You seem to know your subject pretty well, I'll play a few games with your advice in mind, should help a lot ! 
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chooseusername

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #830 on: May 26, 2014, 11:47:43 pm »

But seriously, if you can do anything about diplomacy/hostility and silliness therein Incursion would be one step closer to perfection. The faction system is nice, creatures fighting creatures is awesome especially if you can induce it, but I don't want my damn pony to make everyone hostile to me and even attack myself sometimes.

It'd also be nice if the Orcs in the Orc barracks weren't likely to murderize eachother to hell and back 9 out of 10 times.
These sound like bugs to me.  Check out the issues and add new ones if there aren't suitable ones.
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Zireael

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #831 on: May 27, 2014, 08:30:54 am »

Quote
Mictlantecuhtli, you might want to try out Veins of the Earth - your pony doesn't attack you or make others automagically hostile

I tried Veins of the Earth. It was a bit too crashy. I might try again in a few updates' time.

There was a new beta on Monday. Anyway, I suggest you head over to the Veins of the Earth thread and leave me feedback - no matter how insignificant you might think it is.
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Mr Space Cat

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #832 on: May 28, 2014, 09:09:04 pm »

Having some free time, I decided to try this game again. This reminds me of Dwarf Fortress, given the sheer amount of information the game throws at you off the bat, and the interface feels similarly clunky. Probably just not familiar with it.

Question, does a reduce size trap eventually wear off? Having just finished character creation, the first thing my dwarf barbarian does is enter a corridor and step on a reduce size trap.
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Kagus

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #833 on: May 28, 2014, 09:26:19 pm »

It'll wear off after you've slept once.


Also, Re: Frumple, I'm never gonna say that mages are bad...  I mean, hell, you've said most of what needs be said about them.  I'm just saying that I don't really see any great big thing that they can do that Druids can't do, and in a way that isn't also rounded out by the rest of the Druid's edge benefits.

Also, Wrex at least has been having consistent crashes with summoning, so it's not only hilariously useful enough to be considered unsportsmanlike, but it's also causing CTDs now.  And yeah, raising the dead is also massive fun, when it isn't monster-erasingly buggy.  Gotta love necromancers (or Mara priest/paladin or whatever).

As for Alienists, that used to be my preferred class back in the day.  I haven't checked recently to see if the Alienist spell list bug has been fixed, but they weren't just nigh-on broken, they were broken.  Outright not-functioning-as-planned.  The extraplanar summoning perk they got wasn't properly causing summoning spells to cost persistent mana instead of regular, renewable mana.  You could just spam psuedonaturals like crazy with no regards to your max mana.


Honestly never tried illusionists, just seemed like there was too much unimplemented stuff and not enough to get around those critters who are innately or easily immune to illusions.  Guess I'll have to give it a go some time around.

Frumple

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #834 on: May 28, 2014, 09:42:30 pm »

Generally, it wears off when you sleep. You can also counter it with stuff that increases size (though several of those -- growth potions, ferex -- are temporary) or a dispel effect. If you're character level 4 or lower, you can just swing by the inn for a safe rest.

@ Alienists, the persistent mana thing, well... it originally wasn't like that -- before one of my initial alienist rampages got shown to Mensch, they were just normal summons, cost wise -- and the attempted change didn't stick. On one hand, it's a bug, but on the other, it actually working as intended would be kinda' massively annoying. Just fixing the summons CR limit (which I, or someone, really needs to get an issue recorded about one of these days) would probably be all that's really needed to reign 'em in.

As for mages, what they can do that druids can't... lot of utility stuff, the schools, illusions, necromancy. Easier access to scribing, if you're looking to mondo abuse buffing. Phase door, haha. Detect Monsters, the most powerful ability in the game -- lifesight's not terrible, but it's no Detmon. Druids can get by pretty easily, but they're a lot less versatile than mages. Just have plenty of nigh-broken/hilariously unbalanced stuff for themselves -- create water/whirlpool, produce flame, earth meld (the second most powerful ability in the game), their animal companion, the ridiculous BAB progression for a caster, those utterly ridiculous vermin and plant summoning spells, just to name a few. They're easily the top two classes in the game, right now. Basically, the druids are a bit beefier and more straightforward, but the mages are more versatile -- and versatility, more than almost anything, is power in this game. But it's close, either way.

As for illusionists, yeah, there's a fair amount that isn't implemented. Chromatic Orb (/Explosive Rune/etc.) and plain summons can handle anything that isn't susceptible to illusions until you get the shadow and demi-shadow spells, though, at which point the creatures those can create will completely steamroll everything left in the dungeon. Illusioncraft can produce the single most powerful summons, bar wands, in the game. And even at 1/4th or 1/2 effectiveness, a CR20+ creature is going to wreck absolutely massive amounts of face, heh.
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Kagus

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #835 on: May 28, 2014, 10:24:20 pm »

Plus Druids get obscene buff spells that also translate to their animal companion, they have their own utility spells that mages don't get, obscurement, magic lantern for the non-darksighted, immunity to all terrain (you can pull a Magma Jesus and walk across/sleep on lava flows)...  As for scroll-scribing, you're one whole feat away from the mage's starting bonus, a feat that can be picked up at level 1 (and, arguably, Druids can make better usage of scrolled buff abuse).  Also Druids get healing as a class skill to start with, plus innate poison immunity much later in the playing.  And I always take healing as a skill, got disease-stat-deathed a few too many times...


I'm a bit fuzzy seeing what exactly what kinds of actually useful utility stuff mages get.  Yeah, I'll always miss my beloved Floating Disc...  And Rope Trick, maybe, for a safe sleep?  Except that that's mostly taken care of through other means...  But I still don't see it balancing out the Druid benefits.

Oh, yeah, and Druids are pretty much the only characters who can pull off a 3-way diplomat.  Natural diplomacy/bluff as class skills, animal empathy for wild natural creatures, Mara worship for talking with dead people.  Gimmick, sure, but it's a fun gimmick!


And if we want to talk broken, vermin summoning fills that niche rather perfectly, on account of how it summons ur-dragons for some obscure reason...  Don't know what nonsense the plant summoning whips out, but I do know that the plant shapeshifting is pretty goddamn great.  Especially as your buffs carry over, like the extra attack from Beast Claw.

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #836 on: May 29, 2014, 02:18:11 am »

Having some free time, I decided to try this game again. This reminds me of Dwarf Fortress, given the sheer amount of information the game throws at you off the bat, and the interface feels similarly clunky. Probably just not familiar with it.
It's an incomplete but deep roguelike.  As such, and because it's all keyboard driven, there's an unavoidable complexity.

At some stage, mouse usage will become an option.  Perhaps even a tutorial mode, or a hints mode that suggests options.  But this shit don't do itself.  And fixing bugs comes first, for now.
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Mr Space Cat

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #837 on: May 29, 2014, 07:33:29 am »

I don't mind keyboard controls at all, I prefer my roguelikes in ASCii with keyboard controls, rather than these new fangled tiles and mouse interactions.

The keyboard controls are just mapped differently than I would've thought. Like, I expected to use 'w' to wield the great axe my dwarf barbarian had hanging off his shoulder, since 'w' is such a common shortcut for weapons or armor in other games. Instead I was prompted if I wanted to enter wizard mode. It took some flailing around in the inventory to figure out how to do what I wanted. Once I understood how 'in the air' slot worked, I got the hang of it, but it's a very different way of managing inventory than I had expected.

Also, the sheer number of keyboard controls shown in the ingame '?' screen is a lot to take in for a new player. That's probably what's throwing me off, all the information overload with the new controls to learn, the vast character creation options full of skills and feats or whatever,  all the walls of text to read, it makes starting a new game for a new player a really daunting learning experience. I'll probably get the hang of it as I play more.

I like the potential of this going open source though. I'm imagining a way more in-depth DCSS.
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Gervassen

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #838 on: May 29, 2014, 07:56:10 am »

Mouse usage is a pretty big deal to me. It's the main part of the reason I rarely play this game, although it's probably the best rogue-like ever.
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Zireael

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #839 on: May 29, 2014, 08:02:35 am »

Mouse usage is a pretty big deal to me. It's the main part of the reason I rarely play this game, although it's probably the best rogue-like ever.

Try Veins of the Earth?
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