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Author Topic: Incursion  (Read 126614 times)

ptb_ptb

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #810 on: May 16, 2014, 03:03:30 am »

Are you using the latest version?
Using Incursion-0.6.9Y9

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Can you compress and upload the save file to an issue on the bitbucket site?

Unfortunately I don't have the save anymore. Sorry. If it repeats I will.
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chooseusername

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #811 on: May 16, 2014, 03:38:34 pm »

I was looking into a bug reported by Frumple, to do with illusionary blindness that has been seen through/disbelieved by the target.  The target is still blind.  The reason for this is that the only effect disbelieving an illusion has at this time, is to prevent damage from happening in perhaps one way.  Has anyone any experience in the game to contradict this?
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Draco18s

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #812 on: May 16, 2014, 11:37:32 pm »

That would mean anything like illusionary walls (assuming there are any) would be unable to be walked through, and similar effects.
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Frumple

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #813 on: May 17, 2014, 12:31:12 am »

There aren't any illusionary walls, no (/Advanced Illusion/ mentions them, but the book for that doesn't exist so *shrug*). There is illusionary terrain, but the spells in question are either level 6 (and thus the only way you're getting it is multitude or perk) or in a book that doesn't exist. Well... theoretically you might be able to get /hallucinatory terrain/ if you can manage to get 4th level casting as a twilight huntsman.*

Insofar as I'm aware, disbelief in regards to illusions currently are regarding pretty much only damage, yes. It really shouldn't be, though. It's not until the 5th level spell /Advanced Illusion/ (which, to be fair, is also in that book that doesn't exist :-\) that secondary effects are mentioned as something that should be happening... near as I can tell from it, lower level illusions (barring the shadow line, and that should have its effects cut down appropriately -- 1/5th the DC or magnitude when disbelieved, etc.) shouldn't be causing secondary effects at all -- no blinding from sunscorch, no fear auras or whatnot, etc., so forth, so on.  Disbelieved or not.

That's definitely not how it was working at the point choose took over, or now, though.

*... let me go test that real quicklike. And... nope. No, a priest 3/TH 8 cannot learn any forth level spells (this is despite having the spell slots for them. Actually, it looks like twilight huntsman spell access is entirely borked. They're not getting anything from their spell list.
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Kagus

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #814 on: May 22, 2014, 12:33:43 pm »

Yeah, spell access is actually a real problem, as spell books in general aren't hugely common and the ones that do exist probably won't contain that one book with that one spell you happened to be really banking on.

That, combined with the fact that mages (the only class that uses spellbooks) can't use armor or most weapons, have horrible survivability in general, don't get familiars to help them out, and that probably the one saving grace of mages (Weavecrafting/summoning) is currently game-breakingly borked, there's really not much reason to pick them.  Druids are superior in pretty much every way.

Robsoie

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #815 on: May 22, 2014, 12:48:03 pm »

A question about holes/chasm , i ran into one with a character, i decided to jump into it to see where it was leading.
I landed in magma...

Is there a way to detect (spell/item/ability) where such an opening will lead before jumping ?
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Frumple

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #816 on: May 22, 2014, 01:00:12 pm »

Nope. Closest you can get to is that they're largely lined up with the next level, so if you've already popped down and seen the place, you can get a good idea of where it'll end up. But something pre-emptive... nah, nothing like that. There's nothing, so far as I'm aware, that interacts with levels of the dungeon you're not actively on.
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Retropunch

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #817 on: May 22, 2014, 01:10:42 pm »

Yeah, spell access is actually a real problem, as spell books in general aren't hugely common and the ones that do exist probably won't contain that one book with that one spell you happened to be really banking on.

That, combined with the fact that mages (the only class that uses spellbooks) can't use armor or most weapons, have horrible survivability in general, don't get familiars to help them out, and that probably the one saving grace of mages (Weavecrafting/summoning) is currently game-breakingly borked, there's really not much reason to pick them.  Druids are superior in pretty much every way.

Whilst I know chooseusername is wanting to limit themselves to mostly bug fixes, possibly doing something about spell books/mages would be possible? I'm sure we could suggest some small nudges in the right direction to make them a viable choice? Possibly adding a familiar or starting with an unknown spell book which is only revealed at a certain point/level?
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Robsoie

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #818 on: May 22, 2014, 01:32:35 pm »

Nope. Closest you can get to is that they're largely lined up with the next level, so if you've already popped down and seen the place, you can get a good idea of where it'll end up. But something pre-emptive... nah, nothing like that. There's nothing, so far as I'm aware, that interacts with levels of the dungeon you're not actively on.
Thanks i'll then avoid jumping into those opening.
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Frumple

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #819 on: May 22, 2014, 02:10:40 pm »

That, combined with the fact that mages (the only class that uses spellbooks) can't use armor or most weapons, have horrible survivability in general, don't get familiars to help them out, and that probably the one saving grace of mages (Weavecrafting/summoning) is currently game-breakingly borked, there's really not much reason to pick them.  Druids are superior in pretty much every way.
... do I really have to go and do another mage challenge? The last one used detect monsters and floating disc as its only persistent spells (unless you count levitation, anyway). That was it. I think it had to restart once, twice, before winning? Mages are ridiculous. Mind you, druids are too (I consider druids the easiest class in the game, m'self), but mages are like in second place for survivability and ahead in sheer numbers of ways to break the game over their knee.

Summoning is sillily powerful (for anyone -- bard, priest, mage, druid, whatever), but mages have ridiculous amounts of tools even without them (or using them in limited quantities). Phase door alone is godly, the oodles of utility/debuff/LoS control junk they have, the whole junk-like-minor-drain thing, necromancy minions in general, illusions (easily gamebreaking, even without everything related to them that's not implemented. Nothing short of wands can generate minions as powerful as illusion spells.), the huge swathes of ranged offense available... they're (somewhat) squishy, but that's what rolling high con is for. And all that's without getting into prestige stuff -- loremasters can get the highest spell DCs in the bloody game, alienists are nigh broken (admittedly, it's even worse with druid alienists), there's... just this huge list of ways in which mages are easily the top one or two classes in the game (competing with druids) in terms of... basically everything.

Yes, they can get knocked over pretty easily if something gets in melee with them, but nothing else in the game is as capable of making sure that never happens.

I could rant further, but yes, druids and mages are easily tied for the most powerful classes in the game, followed by priests and then everything else.  Druids are easier to play (and potentially win with, especially once you get the utterly overpowered earth meld), but they and mages are definitely tied for the game's top-tier doomcritters. Incursion does a fair amount to give non or partial casters some love, but it is still most definitely in the quadratic/linear school of power. There's mages, druids, priests, and then the rest of them :P

...

As for spellbooks. There is a chance you end up not getting a few neat spells before the game's over, but it's... pretty low. Libraries are common, other casters are common, the starting store almost always has a few keystone books in it, chests are freaking drowning in the things. Spell access is almost never an actual issue in practice -- even if you don't get something you were banking on, you're almost guaranteed to get something that works just as well. The only thing I was talking about in regards to the post above that was re: a specific spellbook that isn't implemented, and holds a couple key illusion spells (note: Illusionists don't even remotely need them to win. All they need is shadow monsters, and that's implemented). By the end game, you'll almost always have ran into multiple copies of almost every single book that's actually in the game. The dungeon is ruddy stuffed with spellbooks.
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chooseusername

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #820 on: May 23, 2014, 01:50:37 am »

If you want balance changes done, you'll have to come to a consensus between yourselves.  Then have someone post explaining clearly the problem, and how the proposed solution solves it.  I'll then satisfy myself that there are no dissenters with reasonable arguments, and then make an issue relating to it.  Depending on how much work is involved, it may get done sooner rather than later.
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chooseusername

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #821 on: May 23, 2014, 02:08:28 am »

There was a bug in the Forestation druid spell where when you enacted a curse, any affected friendlies became hostile.  The problem with this, is that Forestation incurs no direct damage or harm to the friendlies, and therefore this is an over-reaction.  I've fixed this, however there are other spells with the same problem.

Here's the list of spells I'd consider making the same fix to:

Forest wall.  Solid fog.  Tanglefoot bag.  Wall of fog.  Gust of wind.

Any more?
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Frumple

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #822 on: May 23, 2014, 02:18:18 am »

Anything large is definitely something I'd suggest waiting on (though discussion is fine, of course) until more of the bugs are ironed out, heh. Actually getting the alignment/companion stuff in order would change the game drastically for a whole host of classes (any of the diplomatic ones*, at the absolutely least), just as an example. Same for all the inconsistent/buggy spells and abilities and whatnot, to say nothing of unimplemented stuff. Eventually bringing in the remaining prestige classes would probably do a lot in and of itself, heh.

At the moment, I'd probably say only really worry balance-wise about stuff like class/race combinations being completely unable to win or somethin', which I'm relatively sure doesn't exist -- all of the classes can definitely be won, and none of the races have any glaring issues that really stop them from victory. Closest would probably be elves simply because Maeve is (/can be) a genuinely massive nuisance.

Small tweaks here and there (like, say, dropping the Earthsinger's BAB requirement to +3, as an example) wouldn't be too bad, but anything big would probably be better waiting for later.

*And this definitely includes any of the casters -- companions and minions and whatnot are integral to really rocking the game with 'em, even (especially, to a certain extent), if you're not heavily utilizing summoning.

Here's the list of spells I'd consider making the same fix to:

Forest wall.  Solid fog.  Tanglefoot bag.  Wall of fog.  Gust of wind.

Any more?
Mm... I know grease can do it. Probably entangle (which I vaguely remember may not work at all... need to go through my druid spell list write-up fairly soon). Web? Create water, whirlpool (iirc... the one that creates turbulent water), which might be fair to turn stuff hostile if you drop it on top of something that can't swim, but it probably shouldn't turn, say, undead (who don't need to breath) allies hostile or whatnot. There's a couple higher-end spiked-ground/caltrop type spells the druids have, too... wall of thorns and spiked ground, looking 'em up -- which do have hostile/damaging components, but are the same sort of spell as Solid Fog, tanglefoot bags, or gust of wind.

Almost certainly more I'm forgetting. A lot of trap-created stuff will cause friendlies to turn hostile, actually, as well. Pretty much any AoE debuff or terrain creation/modification spell can cause friendlies to go hostile, really. There is a metamagic feat for avoiding effecting non-hostiles, though (judicious spell). Just not sure how well (if) it works. I really need to run some metamagic heavy games one of these days... I've never really used the stuff.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 02:20:36 am by Frumple »
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getter77

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #823 on: May 23, 2014, 07:22:51 am »

Frumple has the correct thinking in this---informed consensus is best served once all the various unimplemented and not working misc things in terms of spells, the pantheon, skills/feats, diplomacy, and so forth are all there to sit at the grand table outside of anything glaringly obvious.  Otherwise, things are as likely to get tangled again as such things get introduced and further interactions crop up.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Incursion
« Reply #824 on: May 23, 2014, 10:07:07 am »

Yeah, there's plenty to be fixed and balanced before new stuff gets thrown in. Trust me, there's no lack of content in Incursion.

But seriously, if you can do anything about diplomacy/hostility and silliness therein Incursion would be one step closer to perfection. The faction system is nice, creatures fighting creatures is awesome especially if you can induce it, but I don't want my damn pony to make everyone hostile to me and even attack myself sometimes.

It'd also be nice if the Orcs in the Orc barracks weren't likely to murderize eachother to hell and back 9 out of 10 times.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 10:09:04 am by Mictlantecuhtli »
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