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[Leonidas]

Is there a tower height at which you can shoot goblins and elves on the ground, but they can't shoot you?

Does increasing the sentry's height increase or decrease the range at which a sentry will spot thieves and ambushers?

[Warlord255]

Thieves and ambushers are generally proximity detection, if I recall; being on a tower only helps for sniping.

As far as taking potshots from the watchtower, there's no perfect height, but simply being higher gives you a tremendous edge against them. I usually put my towers three or four levels above ground level, sometimes with a different sniper at each level.

[Bromor Neckbeard]

Is there a tower height at which you can shoot goblins and elves on the ground, but they can't shoot you?

As far as I can tell, no.  I've only personally tested it with the ground at z0 and the tower at a maximum of z+8, but the goblin crossbowmen had no trouble shooting at my marksdwarf who was 8 levels above them.  I haven't tested at a difference of 9 or greater, but I've read other people saying it doesn't make a difference no matter how high above the enemy you are.

Now, increasing height DOES increase the "dead zone", but this is actually a disadvantage, because they can't shoot your guys, but your guys can't shoot theirs either.

Does increasing the sentry's height increase or decrease the range at which a sentry will spot thieves and ambushers?

I have read on the forums that it does, but my personal experience is that it does not.  As far as I can tell, the only advantage to making towers higher than 2 z-levels is an aesthetic one.

[Magua]

Is there a tower height at which you can shoot goblins and elves on the ground, but they can't shoot you?

No, there seems to be no range bonus for height.  If you can shoot them, they can shoot you.  So putting sentries on a watch tower gives them a dead zone they can't shoot out, and doesn't give them an increased range.

Does increasing the sentry's height increase or decrease the range at which a sentry will spot thieves and ambushers?

Decreases it.  It's straight distance.

Now, the wiki says that fortifications that are at a higher level provide more defense, so that a marksdwarf behind a fortification 1 z-level up from the attacker is better defended.  Anecdotally, this seems to be true -- fortifications at the same z-level as the attacker seem completely useless, but my marksdwarves do seem to survive better one level up.  I've never seen a benefit for being up beyond that, though.

[Jay]

Being next to a fortification provides a defensive bonus against shots towards you but doesn't hamper your shots out, that's true.

Otherwise, increasing height only increases dead zone, as mentioned.
I place mine at z+1 usually.
I had a nice 1-tile walkway in my 5-tile wide entry hall once, which I stuck fortifications on either side of and stationed 5 marksdwarves on it, with several ambusher detection animals below.
Nothing got in or out that I didn't want.

Code: [Select]

FFFFF                F fortification
@@@@@   z+1          @ marksdwarf
FFFFF                + floor
                     $ chain
+++++                D dog/animal
$D+D$   z-0
+++++
Nothing can sneak past in the tile directly next to friendly things.  It's impossible.

[Tormy]

Right now it's pointless to build huge towers. Why?
1.Because even if your dwarf is shooting from the top of a z+10 tower, his shooting distance won't be bigger at all.
2. In fact it is only increases the dead zone, thus that dwarf is handicapping himself.
3. The enemy ranged units will be able to shoot at your dwarf, even if he is on the top of that z+10 tower.

I suppose that Toady will make this more realistic in the future, since now it's very basic.

[Footkerchief]

The point of building huge towers is that it's badass and awesome.

[Marlowe]

Anecdotally, this seems to be true -- fortifications at the same z-level as the attacker seem completely useless,

They block off enemy melee troops as though they were a wall, allow you to shoot through them, and +do+ hamper enemy return fire. Unless you allow the enemy to get closer to your fortifications than you are yourself they are hardly "completely useless".

I keep my champion wrestlers/novice marksdwarves on the ground level and my elite wrestlers/dabbling marksdwarves on the second.

Especially as I know one of the former's just gonna run out of fishbone bolts in three seconds and beat all the goblins to death with his crossbow anyway.

[Magua]

They block off enemy melee troops as though they were a wall, allow you to shoot through them, and +do+ hamper enemy return fire. Unless you allow the enemy to get closer to your fortifications than you are yourself they are hardly "completely useless".

Yes, yes, and no.  Every time I've used fortifications on the same z-level as the attackers, my marksdwarves behind them have gotten slaughtered by goblin bowmen.  This is with my dwarves right at the fortifications, and the bowmen across a moat.

I keep my champion wrestlers/novice marksdwarves on the ground level and my elite wrestlers/dabbling marksdwarves on the second.

I will direct you again to my qualification about fortifications on the same z-level as the attackers.  I agree that fortifications one z-level up from attackers do seem to offer some benefit.

[Tormy]

The point of building huge towers is that it's badass and awesome.

Yeah, yeah...I tend to build some occasionally...just for the looks. 

[Demetrious]

I will direct you again to my qualification about fortifications on the same z-level as the attackers.  I agree that fortifications one z-level up from attackers do seem to offer some benefit.

Everyone-

it is my humble theory that fortifications (arrow loops) in Dwarf Fortress work much as they do in real life. That is, the further away from them you are, the harder it is to shoot through them. Which isn't such a brilliant theory, given that it's on the wiki- but what I'm trying to say is, the penalties are based purely on range.

Clearly, the way a loophole works is that the defender (your dwarf) is standing right next to it, and thus suffers no penalty, while the attacker (the goblins) are closing from a distance, and thus have a big penalty. The penalty is based purely on range and applies equally to your dwarf and the goblin. Thus if the goblin gets ajacent to the loophole, he can "shoot them through their own loopholes," a scenario that happened more then once in real life combat both medieval and modern.

The point I'm driving at here is that raising your dwarves up one z-level increases the range by one. Additionally, that's range that the goblins cannot close simply by walking up to it. So raising your dwarves multiple Z-levels will have a benefit, because it's increasing the range. The way I understand it, the current game mechanics don't consider distance gained by z-levels different then horizontal distance, so having your fortifications 5 z-levels up is effectively the same as having your fortifications on z-level one, and having a moat five spaces away. The only difference is that the tower has a blind zone near it's base; but that is the perfect place for traps. (Ever wonder why the Germans in "Saving Private Ryan" didn't have some land mines at the base of their big concrete towers? Me too.)

[SolarShado]

Slightly off-topic, but:

I built a defensive wall like so:

Code: [Select]

z=0

.,`'.
=====
.,`'.
z+1
.....
+++++
FFFFF
side:
 F_
  W
That is, fortifications built over open space from the top of the wall.

So, the siege arrives and arrows are flying through the fortifications (killed a cat and a carpenter IIRC).

My question is: did the arrows slip through the diagonal area between the wall and the fortification or did they make it through the fortification?

[Footkerchief]

Everyone-

it is my humble theory that fortifications (arrow loops) in Dwarf Fortress work much as they do in real life. That is, the further away from them you are, the harder it is to shoot through them. Which isn't such a brilliant theory, given that it's on the wiki- but what I'm trying to say is, the penalties are based purely on range.

Clearly, the way a loophole works is that the defender (your dwarf) is standing right next to it, and thus suffers no penalty, while the attacker (the goblins) are closing from a distance, and thus have a big penalty. The penalty is based purely on range and applies equally to your dwarf and the goblin. Thus if the goblin gets ajacent to the loophole, he can "shoot them through their own loopholes," a scenario that happened more then once in real life combat both medieval and modern.

The point I'm driving at here is that raising your dwarves up one z-level increases the range by one. Additionally, that's range that the goblins cannot close simply by walking up to it. So raising your dwarves multiple Z-levels will have a benefit, because it's increasing the range. The way I understand it, the current game mechanics don't consider distance gained by z-levels different then horizontal distance, so having your fortifications 5 z-levels up is effectively the same as having your fortifications on z-level one, and having a moat five spaces away. The only difference is that the tower has a blind zone near it's base; but that is the perfect place for traps. (Ever wonder why the Germans in "Saving Private Ryan" didn't have some land mines at the base of their big concrete towers? Me too.)

This is valid assuming that the projectile range calculations take z-distance into account, which they SHOULD, but some of those kinds of calculations still haven't been 3D-ified properly.

[Demetrious]

This is valid assuming that the projectile range calculations take z-distance into account, which they SHOULD, but some of those kinds of calculations still haven't been 3D-ified properly.

That would explain why siege engines can't fire between Z-levels, all right.

[Random832]

What's the metric for projectile distance calculations? Spherical sqrt(dx^2+dy^2+dz^2), "walking plus up/down" (in which case it's a square dipyramid wider than it is tall), "compass directions plus up/down" (octahedron), diagonal up/down included (cube)?

I think I heard that the metric for noise bothering dwarves was a cube.